>>>Especially when you call Danny’s beard beautiful and encourage attendance of their meetings.

Well the “beautiful beard” was an after thought but I was looking for something nice to say about him and I do like his beard. As far as encouraging people to attend meetings at the Restoration, I think they have many good things that we can learn from.

>>>I remember how we used to bring up the sin free subject when “Babylon” people were too agreeable with us, it would always provoke a confrontation where we could show our superiority and prove we were right and they were wrong.

That may have been you attitude that I can tell you that was never my attitude. I still bring it up and I am not in a OTVC nor do I believe in trying to get every one to come to the congregation I attend.

>>>Most Christians I know are not committing willful sin.

By far the majority of the Christians that I know well are not either. The Christians that attend our Friday night inter-denominational meeting (10 to 15 families) are not committing willful or known sins. But when I go to the street and pass out tracts it is very rare to even find someone that has heard you can live free from willful or known sin let along having that for themselves.

>>>And most of those I know professing to be “free from sin” use the “faults and mistakes” excuse to hide their real sins.

Well I am guessing you are referring to the Restoration people that you seem to think are not saved. But I would agree that Sin Reductionism is one of the dangers of the sin-free teaching.

I had a Restoration minister accuse me of something and claim a number of people had told him that. I looked into it and found out it was not true and confronted him. First he told me I needed to take correction with out always trying to stand up for myself, next he claimed it didn’t say that. When I let him know I had written down what he said during our phone call he then said that he didn’t mean that. After a number of strong emails he admitted that he shouldn’t have said what he said. I am sure he just thought he had exaggerated but it was clear to me that he had lied.

I have found the Restoration ministers to be loose with the truth.

Just like when all of the Chilliwack congregation would go to Nooksack for work day. They would hide there work clothes and work shoes in the trunk and tell the border guards they were going over to visit. When they asked me I just told them I was going to work on the campground and they turned me back. But the ministry told them it was ok so they did it. Did you ever do that to Ed?

>>>Most Christians including myself would consider ego, pride, fleshly living and self-will to be sin but individual definitions of the words vary greatly.

Well if you think ego, pride, fleshly living, and self-will is sin then you are sinning every day and according to 1John you are not saved. One think that I have found helpful when trying to come up with a defination of sin is taking it to the book of 1John and seeing if it matches. The idea that we are all sinning in word thought and deed daily requires that you hold do a dual nature. One that sins and one that doesn’t. Otherwise how are you going to deal with all those scriptures that talk about if you sin you are not a child of God.

I can post them for you if you like.

>>>I just started seriously looking around your site a few days ago so you’re getting bombarded while I have some free time.

Thats fine. I don’t think either of us are past learning or unlearning.

>>>The more things are out in the open the better off we are.

Yes I agree. I think people need to know what they are getting into when they join the Restoration. I feel like all the doctrine hiding is very wrong. Jesus was up front with the Rich Young Ruler and I think the Restoration should follow the example of Jesus in that area.

Thanks!

Bob.

I remember how we used to bring up the sin free subject when “Babylon” people were too agreeable with us, it would always provoke a confrontation where we could show our superiority and prove we were right and they were wrong. Most Christians I know are not committing willful sin. And most of those I know professing to be “free from sin” use the “faults and mistakes” excuse to hide their real sins. Most Christians including myself would consider ego, pride, fleshly living and self-will to be sin but individual definitions of the words vary greatly.

Sorry, I have been talking too much; I just started seriously looking around your site a few days ago so you’re getting bombarded while I have some free time. I appreciate what you are doing, obviously I don’t agree with everything but I think I already covered all that with you. The more things are out in the open the better off we are. I still love you brother and appreciate all the work you put into this site.

>>>If that’s the case we still don’t need to bash on them and scare them off with pictures of 19th century styles and big black hats and beards and to-do lists.

I agree with this. Just in case you are think I am advocating others to wear 19th century styles and big black hats I am not. My current wear (pants and shirts) are from Marks Work Warehouse, my shoes are from Sears and while I wear an Amish straw hat in the summer and a plain clothes black hat in the winter but I don’t encourage others to wear a hat.

As far as to-do lists, I have published a number of to-do lists and I think those are a good thing.

So You Want To Be More Spiritual In The New Year is one of my lastest lists. Would you disagree with such a list?

>>>I wasted 20 years bashing everyone with “the truth.” All it does is “scatter” not gather.

Yes I would agree. Many times you protrayed truth but it was the harsh spirit you did it in that make it wrong. Even the Restoration saw that and I heard the comment many times from others. Do you feel like you have gotten free from this spirit or do you think it still is effecting you. Even in the few messages we have sent back and forth to each other I feel like I see some of that harsh spirit showing up. I tell you that in love.

>>>“Wood, hay and stubble” is what the Word builds without “charity” and the Spirit who makes it life. It makes us feel superior but doesn’t help anyone.

I completely agree.

>>>Show them way to victory in a positive way. Let’s hear your inspiring testimony.

My Personal Experience
This area was a big weakness in my life, and I can testify by the grace of God and to the glory of Jesus that I have complete victory in this area of my Christian walk. There was a time in my life before I was converted that I would very quickly get upset and angry when things did not go my way. I would be verbally abusive toward others, or bang and kick things around.

Even after I was saved, I had to deal with strong temptations to get upset and often had to suppress strong feelings of annoyance, frustration, and irritation. I know what is is like to personally struggle with and suppress feelings of anger, but I am thankful that I have found complete victory in this area in my life.

After I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which purifies the heart from the sin nature (Act 15:9), all feelings of anger were completely eradicated, and I no longer have those feelings that I used to have to suppress.

I feel for those that have struggles in this area, and if we have spouses or Christian brothers and sisters that are struggling in these areas, we need to uphold them in prayer and exhort them to look to Jesus for complete victory.
http://morechristlike.com/victory-over-anger/

There are a number more on my blog if you would like me to post links to them.

>>>It’s not by changing their clothes or doctrines but by touching Jesus. It is only through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit that a person can “mortify the deeds of the flesh.” They need to see something better than what they’ve got.

I completely agree!

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.

“Wood, hay and stubble” is what the Word builds without “charity” and the Spirit who makes it life. It makes us feel superior but doesn’t help anyone. Show them way to victory in a positive way. Let’s hear your inspiring testimony.

It’s not by changing their clothes or doctrines but by touching Jesus. It is only through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit that a person can “mortify the deeds of the flesh.” They need to see something better than what they’ve got.

>>>Do you realize this is what most Christians today would call “sin?” We can’t write off Christian groups and individuals because they don’t use our definitions or subscribe to our “standard.”

Yes I realize that most professing Christains include as sin any ego, any pride, any errors, any faults, any mistakes in judgment and action, any fleshly living, any stubborness, any self-will.

But if that is the case we are all sinners, we all practice sin daily, and no one is saved according to 1John.

>>>We can’t write off Christian groups and individuals because they don’t use our definitions or subscribe to our “standard.”

This I agree with and if you can please point out where I have done this and I will retract and repent.

>>>Just because you were a deceived sinning Calvanist before you came among the “Guthrie” church of God influence does not mean that the majority of Christians outside of the so-called “holiness” groups are like that.

That is right. Just because I was deceived doesn’t mean others are. How ever it is my experience (yours may be differnet) that most professing Christians are commiting willful and known sins.

I suggest you subscribe to Christianity Today so you can read about status like 60% of Protestant missionarys struggle with porn.

Now I am not talking about ego, pride, errors, faults, mistakes in judgment and action, fleshly living, stubborness, and self-willed. I am talking about smoking, drinking, drugging, porn, lying, stealing, fornacation, adultry, wrath, and the such like.

Now these sin-you-must professors will only talk about the ego, pride, errors, faults, mistakes in judgment and action, fleshly living, stubborness, and self-will. But for the most case they are hiding behind these things that we all have to some degree. Typically they will not talk about their smoking, drinking, drugging, porn, lying, stealing, fornacation, adultry, wrath, and the such like.

I maintain the by far the majority of professing Christians are commiting willful and known sins regularly.

Do you realize this is what most Christians today would call “sin?” We can’t write off Christian groups and individuals because they don’t use our definitions or subscribe to our “standard.” Just because you were a deceived sinning Calvanist before you came among the “Guthrie” church of God influence does not mean that the majority of Christians outside of the so-called “holiness” groups are like that.

[Editor: More comment spam from firstbathrooms.co.uk . I removed the link to there site.]

All the ministers and serious Bible students in the Restoration would know about D.S. Warner’s booklet on Marriage & Divorce. Most would also know of his position of leaving it up to the couple to decide whether they would stay in a second marriage where the couple didn’t realize they were disobeying the Bible when they got into the marriage.

Few of the ministers or Bible students in the Restoration would know about the ministers decision at the General Camp Meeting at Moundsville in 1901, where the position was taken that any it was wrong to leave second marriages where the couple didn’t realize they were disobeying the Bible when they got into the marriage.

I have asked Danny Layne about D.S. Warner’s position and he really didn’t have much to say about it other than they have better light and understanding now.

Like most groups that hold they are the one true visible church, they downplay and minimize their own errors, faults, and sins and blow up the errors, faults and sins of other groups. They will denounce the Roman Catholic sect for hiding the priests that molest minors but when it happened among them they covered it also.

They are quick to point out the Bible Missionary Church (BMC) is an “adultery group” because it allows couples to remain with second wives and remarries people into second marriages. And they do this knowing they what they claim is the restored church under D.S. Warner did the same thing (not remarrying but staying together).

They denounce the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah Witnesses as untrustworthy because they predicted the second advent of Christ and it never happened, but fail to admit or put any judgment on D.S. Warner for believing and stating that God had showed him that Christ would come back before he would die. D.S. Warner died on Dec 12, 1895.

And the list goes on.

Those that pointing people to their church group and claiming it is the one true visible church (OTVC) are pointing people to man and to themselves. When you point others to man instead of Christ you will have to either admit to the faults, failures, and sins of some of the men you point people to, or hide those faults, failures, and sins.

OTVC groups without failure will hide the faults, failures, and sins of their members instead of admit to them. To admit the faults, failures, and sins that are among them is to admit they are just a church among churches with problems too.

It has been a very hard learning curve for me to come to the realization that God’s church is not as perfect as I was lead to believe and to put off the judgmental attitudes I have picked up from the Restoration. God’s children are a imperfect people at the best of times. We have ego’s, pride, we are full of errors, faults, and make mistakes in judgment and action. We are fleshly, stubborn, self-willed creatures that live in what Paul called a vile body.

I have been studying the 7 churches of Revelation and meditating on the 5 church that had bad reports but still a candle stick. The presences of a candle stick means that they were a congregation that God was still working with. This is quite a different picture that I learned at the Restoration who hold that all other congregation beside their small 15 congregations are of the devil and have their foundation on the bottomless pit.