Thanks for you comments and I am glad you are enjoying the site.

As far as the discussion being silly I agree to a point. I did how every feel like it is an issue that needs to be aired as their are some honest and sincere people that tend to associate Herbalism and Naturopathy together. There is a lot of Herbalism in Naturopathy but the spiritual element of Naturopathy is not part of Herbalism and not every one realizes this.

Some Naturaopathy practices involved spiritual concepts that have to do with Qi – spiritual energy flow, Chakras – spiritual force centers, and Yin-Yang – opposing spiritual forces interconnected, that conservative Christians would consider part of the occult.

Practices like Acupuncture (inserting needles in points that are situated on meridians which Qi the spiritual energy flows), Chromotherapy (believes in seven Chakras, spiritual force centers and seven corresponding colors), Reflexology (massaging of the feet and hands can improve health through one’s Qi or spiritual energy flow), and Traditional Chinese medicine (believes in Qi spiritual energy flow and Yin-Yang opposing interconnected spiritual forces) should be seen occult and avoided.

Therefore I feel like Mike has a valid concern but I disagree with associating B&W and burdock leaves in any way with the spiritual side of Naturopathy. Also he seems to think using B&W and burdock is wrong by association as some of the practitioners or product producers are involved in Naturopathy practices that going into the spiritual side.

So I thought this was a good place to address that valid concern.

I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to be critical or de-Christianize someone either way they decide on this subject. As to the pagan argument, quite frankly I get tired of people labeling something as bad just because some pagan somewhere chooses to do it. If a pagan ate a pizza, would that suddenly be considered evil?

By the way Bob, enjoy the website.

It doesn’t matter to me where you accept the claims that some burn care workers make or not. Feel free to use traditional methods for burn treatment if that is what you want to do.

The real issue that I have with you is what seems to be a willingness to lump using B&W ointment and burdock leaves in with new paganism. Also what appears to be an attempt to condemn this method of dressing burns by discounting the people who either provide products or services for this burn treatment method because of their philosophy or conduct in other areas.

Seeing how you are discrediting practices by association have you consider applying this to your own position of upholding traditional methods of burn treatment. Did you stop to even think that the majority of Traditional Medical practitioners (doctors) whose methods of burn treatment that you seem to prefer support abortion and some of them have done abortions.

1Co 13 tell us that love is kind, thinks no evil, bears, believes, hopes, and endures all things. Agape love should stop you from implying that care methods that use natural products are doing something wrong (if that is what you are doing) just because many herb practitioners are involved in new paganism or because some product produces or practitioners are involved in questionable practices.

Or after you realize that you have not correcting researched your subject and perhaps have jumped the gun and implied some thing that is not true – to at least make an retraction.

While I am not questioning your motives in this discussion I do question the methods you are using to discount this natural burn treatment and your clear lack of research. You have not even read available booklets that layout this practice.

1Co 13 doesn’t teach guilty until proven innocent. If you are going to imply this nature burn treatment is new paganism and hence cast a bad refection on those who provide, receive, and promote this treatment, the onus is 100% on you to clearly show that it is new paganism before you make or imply such a charge. This my friend you have not done!

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.

In the USA, a man is considered “innocent until proven guilty”. That is a good principle for judging people, but it is not a good principle to say that any herbal remedy is valid (innocent) until proven invalid (guilty). In fact, I operate on pretty much the opposite: a remedy is not to be considered valid until proven so by unbiased testing.

Why do I judge them so? I have done my research and found that only a very small percentage have been proven effective.

Personal testimonies are NOT proof of validity. If personal testimonies were valid, then I could give you thousands of remedies for about any disease known to man.
I am interested in bona-fida herbal remedies. But I will not associate with remedies that are:

1. Concocted by people who are not totally free from witchcraft practices like muscle testing, iridology, radiology, “pow-wowing”, etc. and etc.
2. Drawn from eastern religions or Native American herbology (shamanism)
3. “Proven” only by testimonials.
4. Not given any sort of side-by-side comparison with placebos or other products.

So if the remedy that you are promoting passes these fourcriteria, I am greatly interested.

You are making yourself a “partaker ” of this remedy by promoting it. It is your duty to make sure that the people that concocted B&W Ointment are not involved in witchcraft, and have not used any witchcraft-type practices to come up with the formula.

For your information, I have yet to see an Amish herb doctor that is not involved in these other types of “alternative healing”.

Mr. Keim MAY be totally free of all these other techniques and MAY speak out against them, calling them sin. He would be the first Amish medicine man that I know of, if he is totally disassociated with other witchcraft-type practices. But I dont know everything and everyone. And I will not call him a witch-doctor until I have proof that he is. But I must be real and acknowledge that his people (the Amish) have a very bad track record with witchcraft.

That is my concern for you. “Be not partakers in other men’s sins.”

Well, I think I have made my concern plain. I will not go further with this, unless you have a specific question or concern to me.

Mike

First of all, thank you for your honesty about the method not being researched. You are one of the very few (only?) persons who use this type of thing that I have heard be that honest. So many people take a personal testimony off the internet or out of a herbal and use that as “proof” for being “scientific”.

What you are doing for burns is probably a whole lot better than doing nothing. Whether it is better than a burn treatment center, I would not know. It is certainly cheaper! The bottom line is that a little common sense goes a loooong way when it comes to taking care of ourselves when hurt or sick.
Mike

PS: I know that the medical field is not infallible and totally correct in what they do.
I have never taken the first aspirin. :-)

I didn’t state your research was a “5 minute search”. My statement was “doing a Google search on “burdock leaf uses” and thinking you have done your research leaves a bit to be desired.”

I still don’t think you have done your research on B&W ointment and burdock leaves as they relate to burn treatments and I would feel that you made a judgment without doing due diligence and you admit that much in your last comment.

I have not promoting iridology, reflexology, dowsing, or using magnets to heal but it seems to me that you have put B&W and burdock leaves in the same boat with those things.

I do understand how easy that is to do considering some of the other practices the Plain People do like dowsing (this has been practiced by some members in good standing from the Aylmer Pathway Amish community).

I suggested that your research in B&W and burdock should have included at least a read of The New Concept In Treating Burns and Burn Aid which are the two main books concerning the use of B&W ointment and burdock leaves. Another good book would be Comfort for the Burned and Wounded by John Keim.

If you are going to imply that a system of treatment is faulty they you need to at least educate yourself with the best material from both sides.

The use of herbs in non-industrialized societies is often associated with the occult, and to some degree we even see this in developed societies. However I am very clear that you can use herbs internally and externally to aid the natural healing of the body without any involvement in the occult.

Hence I have no problem providing information on the results burn care workers have had dressing burns using B&W, burdock leaves, and other natural substances like honey, Aloe-vera gel, and wheat germ oil, and honey. Or even products like Dr. Christopher’s BF&C Powder even if John Christopher’s personal or business philosophy is not Bibical.

While I could go into how squed some scientific tests have been and how harmful many products and practices that the traditional medical community has espoused, but that is not my burden. I am not asking you or anyone else to accept the practice of using herbs that some burn care workers espouse and claim to have better results with then traditional burn treatments.

However I am asking you to not cast a bad reflection on the use of herbs in burn treatments especially when you have not done due diligent and researched both sides.

I see quackery in both the medical community and the community of practitioners that use herbs, but that has never led me to discount everything in either community.

I can see where you may think that my “research” was a 5 minute Google search, from what I wrote. What I failed to mention was that the Pharmakeia 2000 A.D. article was originally written about 10 years ago and involved many, many hours of research in the local library (before internet was even widespread).

My experience with the “Plain People” has been over 25 years now (including a couple of years working for Old Order Amish), and I am well acquainted with their involvement in iridology, reflexology, dowsing, using magnets to cure, as well as a host of herbal treatments that almost defies the imagination.

Just check out an issue of “The Budget” and see how many types of remedies and cures of all sorts are advertised.

As far as treatment of burns, and specific “cures” for them, I have not specifically zeroed in on that. My general concern is more broad. The use of “holistic medicine” is so closely connected to other occultic and quackery (think “homeopathic”) that it is almost impossible to find natural remedies that really do work, whose promoters are not connected to “witchcraft” in some way or another. In other words, herbology totally disassociated from homeopathy, radiology, yin/yang, etc is almost non-existant.

I am not saying that I know that burdock leaves are not a good way to treat burns. That MAY be a good way. There MAY be better ways. My (unproven) theory is that almost any cool, moisturizing substance applied to a burn would help. Some substances would be better than others, I am sure.

When I see some tests results, totally disassociated from all other witchcraft and quackery methods, and where various methods were tried against a placebo etc, I will gladly accept the results. And I am not saying the tests have to be done by a university.

If anyone wants to accept some personal testimony of how a certain herb or tincture cured some disease, then subscribe to “The Budget” and and you can soon have a book full of them.

I need to go for now.

Mike

I am SURE that what I am doing has not been researched – that would take thousands of dollars. I am only helping folks – never bill them, seldom see a cent. But the things I am using help surprisingly much and I am enjoying being able to bless people. We do seek God first and He still is in the healing business.

I really wish more of my friends would understand this. But, Mike, we cannot force people into praying in faith – so this said, I still help folks with natural remedies.

I read your article Pharmakeia 2000 A.D. and I believe it is unbalanced. The articles I have posted are methods that are being used to speed up the process of the healing for burns and wounds. To even imply these are methods are “new paganism”, as it appears you have in your article and comments, shows a clear lack of research and in my view a lack of discernment.

Doing a Google search on “burdock leaf uses” and thinking you have done your research leaves a bit to be desired considering the Amish have not been posting their years of findings on the Internet. You may want to do better research that you have Mike.

For example if you would take time to look at my post Burn Treatment Books and ordered a number of them you would have more information concerning the burdock leaves and B&W ointment and the results that burn caretakers have obtain using them.

I have looked well into this and it is very clear to me that burdock leaves and B&W ointment work.

I would suggest you educate yourself before you make a knee jerk reaction and write it all off.

There are a number of good books out on this. I would suggest The New Concept In Treating Burns published by Plain Interests Research, Burn Aid published by Barefoot Publications (I have both of them sitting in front of me).

So its a bit more than Googling something up. Also keep in mind that the established medical system typically doesn’t accept holistic cures even if they work.

Concerning cold Aloe-vera perhaps you should talk to those that have used it. These are things that have been passed down for may years and they clearly work. I don’t think you are thinking straight on this one. There are accounts after accounts of these things working among the plain people.

If you think cold 10w-40 would do the same as cold Aloe-vera you clearly know little or nothing about natural cures and remedies and any research you have done could only be faulty or very bias. At first I thought you were just being sarcastic with this remark but after reading your whole post I am wondering if perhaps you are serious with this remark.

I personally have no problem with people that want to go with James 5 and exclude natural remedies. I have always felt clear doing both. However I do think that is is unbalanced to try to force the opinion that it is James 5 only and that natural remedies are a lack of faith, or worse yet “new paganism”.

Thank you for your caution and concern about my publishing and promoting what you are calling unproven remedies. I will take heed to your warning and try to be careful, with the help of the Lord, to be judicious in the things I post on this blog. I am not above correction nor above making mistakes.

However the work that John Keim and Mark Stoll are doing I can’t consider unproven remedies. I have done my research but yours appears to be quite one sided when it comes to natural burn remedies.

The reason I opened up a Burn Treatments category and am posting articles concerning natural burn treatments was not to promote natural remedies but to rank in the Search Engine for natural remedy key phases. This is so I can present practical Christian and the holiness message to the visitors that will be searching for these terms.

For your information Susan and I have been involved in a lifestyle change over the last 3 years. We have moved away from processed foods, chemical cleaners, and we are both taken vitamins, minerals, and supplements. This is not something I fell into last week.

Any one that has looking into the holistic side of things knows there is healing values in certain plants.

I don’t think any one here has stated that the Bible has said that God made plants to aid in healing as you seem to imply. But it is a view that some people including myself hold and I don’t consider that a “new paganism” view.

Also yuou seem to be trying to discredit natural remedies when you bring up the point that Mormons promote them. Keep in mind that Mormons also meet on Sunday and most of them use a KJV Bible.

As far as your warning against Dr. Christopher, I am not promoting Dr. Christopher’s doctrine. Some burn caretakers use his products and noted that in one of the posts. Go look in your medical cabinet and pick a few items out and investigate the companies that manufactures them and tell me what you think of their philosophy. Then let me know how you would deal with someone that tried to discredit those products by telling your the manufacture was run by an ungodly board of directors.

To refuse to use a medical produce became you don’t agree with the philosophy of the producer or the producer doesn’t have his religion right makes no sense to me at all.

I think you need to sit down and clear you head and try to think rationally about this.

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.

There is a concern I have about some of this, which I have addressed in Pharmakeia 2000 A.D.

There are a lot of “natural remedies” floating around out there which have no or very little proven effectiveness, and in reality are based upon old pagan philosophies and old wive’s tales.

For example, do a Google search on “burdock leaf uses” or “burdock root uses” and you will find all kinds of things that burdock supposedly cures or helps.

Now look a little closer at all these “remedies” and look at the source, and the scientific studies that have proven it. When it comes to real scientific data, it is pretty skimpy!

In the above article, burdock is supposed to be good for burns. That may be. But there is no proof, that I know of, that it is any better than maple leaves or strawberry leaves. The cold aloe…was it the aloe or the cold? As soon as the aloe cooled off, it began to hurt.

This tells me that it was more likely the coolness than the aloe. Maybe cold grape jelly would work as well, or even better. Maybe cold 10w-40 motor oil would do the same.

It saddens me to see so many Christians–and the “Plain People” are perhaps more guilty than other groups–who will believe in all kinds of herbal remedies and other “alternative” medicine, but will not practice James 5 with a real faith.

I know you just came out of the R, which will not use modern medical procedures in many cases, but I would caution you to be discerning about publishing and promoting this type of unproven remedies.
Look into it…the Bible does not say that “God made plants to aid in healing, if we know how to use them “, as the above article indicates. That is a personal opinion, but it is not the Bible.

The Mormons promote that doctrine. (They own 90% of all herb companies in the USA, and are big promoters of herbology.) Look at the link for the Herb Shop Connection…Utah!!

Dr. Christopher… Take a peak into this man. Here is what he believed:

“Dr. Christopher’s philosophy could be summed up in three words. Cleanse,- Nourish – Heal. This simple but profound philosophy can be used by all mankind to improve their health. Dr. Christopher believed that there were no incurable diseases, only that there are incurable people who will not adhere to this simple process of first cleansing the body of toxins and then nourish the body with good wholesome foods and then finally use the God given herbs which have been used safely for thousands of years to help the body heal itself.”
http://www.drchristophers.com/dr-christopher/philosophy.html

This deceived man believed there were no incurable diseases.

Does the fact that the Mormons promote herbology make it automatically bad? No. But it probably stems from their doctrine (which is a mixture of Christian and Eastern religions), which promotes the idea that “God made the herbs for medicine”.

I could say a lot more, but I will stop here.

Mike