Questions: I have heard that you believe that when a Christian sins, they are now lost from God and need to be born again, again. Is this true?
Answer: Yes, I would hold when a Christian commits a willful sin then they are not longer saved.
The scriptures that I would use to support this would be, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him” (1Joh 3:15), “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” (1Joh 4:20), and “He that committeth sin is of the devil” (1Joh 3:8).
You can read my article on Sin is Not an Option for the Christian, Committing Sin Brings Spiritual Death, Biblical Definition of Sin, and Sinning and the Greek Present Tense. These will give you a better understanding of what I hold the New Testament teaches concerning what happens when a Christian sins.
December 17th, 2008 at 8:04 am
“The scriptures that I would use to support this would be “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him” (1Joh 3:15),”
I believe what John is doing in the book of John over and over again is He is showing us who is a Christain and who is not a Christian. A Christian ( one that has eternal life) loves his brother. And you know that one that hates His brother is not a Christian ( does not have eternal life abiding in Him) He also says one that loves the world does not have the love of the father in Him, ( is not a Christian)
He is not saying that when a Christian hates His brother he will lose His eternal life. He is rather making an observation of what a saved man looks like and what an unsaved man looks like. One that hates His brother is not a Christian, wheras one that loves His brother is. He goes on to say : 1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If this verse be true than that would mean that a Christian would not be able to sin because a Christian cannot sin because God’s seed remaineth in Him. This is a strong verse for perseverance of the saints and also 1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
One that lives in sin has not seen God nor known Him ( past tense). That means that anyone that says they know God but are living in sin were never Christians to begin with. That teaches that if a professing Christian were to go back into sin that would only show that he never knew God. Idon’t know what else you can get from that verse.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Hi Jake;
It appears to me that you hold that a person can’t loose their salvation as you note that “anyone that says they know God but are living in sin were never Christians to begin with” and “if a professing Christian were to go back into sin that would only show that he never knew God”.
I suggest you review my article Considering Eternal Security & The IF Scriptures.
Concerning 1Joh 3:6 or 1Joh 3:9 neither of them says “living in sin”. 1Joh 3:6 says “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:” and 1Joh 3:9 states “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;”.
I don’t think you can justify translating it living in sin just because the Greek verb or participle is in the present tense. I suggest you read my article on Sinning And The Greek Present Tense where I maintain if you are going to translate the Greek verb or participle in scriptures like 1Joh 3:6, 9 using continuous you must also add continuous scriptures like 1Joh 2:29 where the Greek participle is in the present tense. This will give you “every one that continuously doeth righteousness is born of him” (1Joh 2:29 KJV Modified).
I made the above point on the last thread you commented on and you didn’t address it there either. To have a more meaningful discussion if I state an objection to how you are translating a scripture that you are using as one of your main points, you not only shouldn’t pass over the objection but you shouldn’t go and make that same point again without answering the objection. Also on the same thread you passed over a number of questions. It will also make a more meaningful discussion if you respond to my questions and points. I am doing my best to respond to all your questions and points as I think that makes for a more meaningful discussion.
Having added continuous to 1Joh 2:29 it now teaches that you much continuously doeth righteousness or you are not born of him. How ever almost all main translates leave out continuous (ASV, KJV, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, RSV, YLT) as that is an issue of interpretation. AMP and NASB are the only main versions that I know of that translates the action to read continuous in the English when the Greek verb or participle is in the present tense.
If you add continuous to 1Joh 3:6, 9 but you are not willing to add it to scriptures like 1Joh 2:29 you show you are bias and only translating the Greek present tense where it supports your view of the scriptures. When you add it to 1Joh 2:29 it gives the very opposite effect of what it does when you add it to 1Joh 3:6, 9. When added to 1Joh 2:29 if you don’t continuously do righteousness you are not born of him.
Now if you leave out the continuous addition you have the scriptures teaching “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” and “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not”. If you refuse to accept 1Joh 3:6, 9 as they are and insist to make the action continuous you then must deal with “every one that continuously doeth righteousness is born of him” (1Joh 2:29 Modified) and you are right back where you started, which is there is no room for intermittent disobedience in the Christian life and those that are intermittent disobedience are not saved or according to the teaching you would hold were never saved.
Concerning the other points you made concerning 1Joh 3:6, 9 let me just quote Clarke and Wesley to show the common way the Wesleyan-Arminian deal with the points you raised concerning these scriptures.
1Joh 3:6 Hath not seen him – It is no unusual thing with this apostle, both in his gospel and in his epistles, to put occasionally the past for the present, and the present for the past tense. It is very likely that here he puts, after the manner of the Hebrew, the preterite for the present: He who sins against God doth not see him, neither doth he know him – the eye of his faith is darkened, so that he cannot see him as he formerly did; and he has no longer the experimental knowledge of God as his Father and portion.
–Adam Clarke
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God – By living faith, whereby God is continually breathing spiritual life into his soul, and his soul is continually breathing out love and prayer to God, doth not commit sin. For the divine seed of loving faith abideth in him; and, so long as it doth, he cannot sin, because he is born of God – Is inwardly and universally changed.
–John Wesley
May 20th, 2009 at 8:15 am
If a person loses their salvation by willful acts of sin, what of verses such as Hebrews 6:6, which state that should a person fall away, they can not be renewed again to repentance?
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Does this mean that if a Christian sins, and “falls away” that they are from that point eternally damned with no hope for salvation?
May 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Hi Foster,
The short answer is if a person has not fallen away to the degree that the Spirit of God is able to convict them of their sin they are able to repent. I answered your question in post entitled Impossible To Renew Them Again Unto Repentance.
July 20th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Would one who has fallen away in the sense spoken of Heb 6:6 care?
How does one know if the Spirit is convicting them?
If a person does repent, will God reject them?
July 24th, 2009 at 1:36 am
Hi Ian,
No I don’t think a person that has fell away from Christ in the sense that Heb 6:6 speaks of would have any care for their soul at all. That would laugh and scoff and call good evil just like the Pharisees did they they said “this fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils” (Mat 12:24).
The only reason a person would have any concern for there soul is because God is drawing them to himself. If a person had committed sin that God would refuse to pardon God would never draw them to salvation and then refuse them.
I see Heb 6:6 the same as the “sin unto death” which we are told “I do not say that he shall pray for it” (1Jn 5:16), and the same as the “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” which “shall not be forgiven unto men” (Mat 12:31).
This is not an act which God refuses to forgive but it is a state that people can get into where they have seared their hearts so much where the Spirit of God can no longer draw them. If they are so hardened that the Spirit can’t draw them then there is no chance of salvation.
The Pharisees scoffed at Jesus when he did a notable miracle of healing the blind and dumb. They were so blinded and their hearts so seared they could be in the presents of God incarnate, saw him heal a blind and dumb man and laugh and say he is of the devil. No wonder Jesus said they were in a state where there was no forgiveness.
The teaching that you can commit a sin where you want to be saved but God refuses to save you is false doctrine and is responsible for sending people to hell. I would rather stand before God on the last day and be responsible for telling people that couldn’t get saved that they could get saved then to have told people that could get saved that they couldn’t.
Some professing Christians get a hold of teachings and it seems they never have sat down and thought things through. It seems they have not asked themselves “what will be the effect on people I teach this to if I am wrong?” Or “what will God say to me on the last day if this teaching is wrong?”
If people would only think some of these things through we would not have all these unbiblical teachings like Calvinism, Eternal Security, and non-repentance apostate. Oh how people will be cursing Calvinist and Eternal Security teachers in hell for all eternity.
And oh the blood that will be on these teachers hands for telling people that there was nothing they could do to get saved but wait for God to move on them (hyper-Calvinism) or that if they had a moment of faith when they were six years old they can never be lost (Eternal Security). May God have mercy on all these the teachers of these unbiblical teachings.
You know the Spirit is convicting you if you feel any concern for your soul at all. Those that feel a concern for their soul should seek God and make steps toward him. Put off all sinning they can, start reading the Bible and praying for mercy, contact all the spiritual people they know and ask them to pray for them. Give up their smoking, drinking, drugging, running around, porn, lying, swearing, ungodly music, television, radio, internet and what ever else is causing them to sin. Get serious, plead for mercy, cry out for help, don’t give up.
Then God will be moved on this throne and he will do a salvation work!
Jn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Tit 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
July 26th, 2009 at 2:25 am
Thank you very much for answering my questions. I just had some more that have been bugging me.
But why would the Hebrew writer use Esau as an example?
It’s just so confusing to me. If repentance is a gift from God, and Esau
repented, God rejected him? That doesn’t make any sense.
Of course, maybe it was because his repentance was false. Or maybe it means that he couldn’t change his fathers’ mind?
And what does Hebrews 10:26 mean?
July 26th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Hi Ian,
Esau was used as a bad example. He sold his birthright for the fleeting pleasures of the flesh — a bit of food. Esau’s error was that he “despised his birthright” (Gen 25:34) and he stands as a warning to those us today least we “fail of the grace of God” (Heb 12:15) and become a “profane person” (Heb 12:16) as Esau did and despise our spiritual birthright. Their is also a warning here that we beware least we become defiled and due to the deceitfulness of sin find “no place of repentance” (Heb 12:17).
While in Esau’s case he sought to recover his literal birthright with tears but their was no recovery, in our case we have a promise that if we sin there is forgiveness through Christ (1Jn 2:1). But to us there is also a warning that we must beware least we presume on the grace of God and live in willfuly, known, and open sin thinking we can repent just before we die.
It is possible to sin away the day of grace and harden and sear our heart’s to the place that the Spirit of God can no longer convict us of our sin. We can become apostate and ever deny the faith we once loved to the point where we are in the condition of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mat 12:31), or sin unto death (1Jn 5:16), or fallen away (Heb 6:6).
This is the reason I feel that Esau is used as an example. He lost his earthy birthright, if we go back into sin we can get into a condition where we have lost our heavenly birthright with no change to recover it.
As far as Hebrews 10:26 I would believe that if you sin willfully your past sins which were forgiven are no longer forgiven. So if you go into willful sin your sins are no longer covered. At the same time I hold the Bible teaches you can repent and have them forgiven again (1Jn 2:1).
July 27th, 2009 at 12:08 am
So one who has “crossed the point of no return” wouldn’t care?
July 27th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Hi Ian,
Yes that is correct. If they hardened their heart to such a point where the Spirit of God was unable to draw them to God they would never come or want to come became “no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (Jn 6:44).
This is the safest position to take on Mat 12:31-32, Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26-27, 1Jn 5:16-17.
I would be rather found on the last day teaching people that can’t come to Christ that they can, that to be found teaching those that can come to Christ that they can’t.
I hold the same position with Unconditional Election and Eternal Security. On the last day I would rather be found teaching anyone can to come to Christ and to find out that it was only a few that were unconditionally elected before the foundations of the world, then to have taught that it is only a few unconditionally elected people that can come and find out that everyone could have come.
On the judgment day I would rather be found teaching that you could loose your salvation if you willfully or knowingly sinned and find out that you couldn’t, than to teach that you couldn’t and find out you could.
I believe that we will be judged on the last day for any spiritual blood we have on our hands. Those that teach unscriptural doctrines that mislead people and cause them to be lost, these teachers will also be lost.
February 17th, 2010 at 10:30 am
I would just like to make a point for all those who think that “if you’ve got it you’ll never lose it (salvation), but if you lose it you never had it”. This is the worst of all doctrines. You can never know that your saved in this case, because how can you know that you won’t ever commit some serious sin down the road and fall away? Therefore you can’t know for sure you’re saved now! How can you have any assurance then?
If you believe that you can lose your salvation, then you can absolutely know for sure your walking with God now! If your a Calvinist at least you falsely believe that you’re saved no matter what, even in your rebellious sin. But with this doctrine I don’t see how there can ever be any assurance real or imagined, especially for those who believe that you can’t live above sin. With this doctrine you have to repeat the sinners prayer continually, and even then you can never know for sure if your saved.
I thank the Lord that some of us have not swallowed this false gospel knowing that we can “walk in the light as He is in the light”, and “that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin”, not just the act but the power. We can know now whether “we are in the faith”, and we have complete and constant assurance of salvation, as long as we obey Him. “We are only eternally secure if we are eternally faithful.”
Thank you for your website, since the web is full of it’s calvinist and semi-calvinist teachings, your sight was hard to find, but I’m glad I found it.
May the Lord bless your efforts to spread truth.
Dan
February 17th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Hi Dan,
Could you expand on this some more please and provide me with this in article form. I will post it on my blog.
This is one of the very points that I have brought up. If you believe in P in TULI(P), Perseverance of the Saints, or conservative Eternal Security there is no assurance of salvation.
Also drop me your phone number at bobmutch@gmail.com .
Thanks!
Bob.