Dec 07

In the back of Finney’s Systematic Theology 1878 edition that is published by Bethany House Publishers, there is a glossary of terms. From what I can tell, the glossary of terms were not written by Finney but inserted by one of the publishers, as it is not in the online 1878 edition of Finney’s Systematic Theology.

This definition will give you a feel for the kind of disinformation people involve themselves in when they are trying to invalidate a doctrinal position they disagree with.

This definition is found on page 589.

“SINLESS PERFECTION: [also called PERFECTIONISM] a theological view that holds that a believer can ‘arrive’ at a state in which (1.) his walk in obedience and holiness is not dependant on the Grace of God, and that (2.) he no longer has the ability to sin. Finney rejected this view entirely.”

Sinless perfection is not a term I have ever used to explain the “free from sin” teaching that I hold. While I do not think anyone believes the above definition of sinless perfection, I put it there to make a point.

Carnal people have always been willing to build straw men and rejoice as they tear them down. In doing so, the only ones they are tearing down is themselves and the simple people who do not have enough prudence to find out what a person teaches for themselves. “The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going” (Pro 14:15).

So perhaps I should lay out what I consider the Bible teaches concerning the doctrine of “free from sin”. The following lays out clearly how I would hold the Bible teaches, when it comes to being free from sin.

Free from Sin Teaching
1) A person who desires to become a child of God must bring forth fruits to God that are consistent, worthy, keeping with, and befitting repentance (Mat 3:8). Fruits befitting repentance have no merit in becoming a child of God, but are scriptural requirements.2) A person must have godly sorrow (2Cor 7:10) for their sins and repent of their sins (Luk 13:3) to become a child of God. Sorrow and repentance have no merit in becoming a child of God, but are scriptural requirements.

3) Repentance is a complete change in attitude toward your past sinful life and a commitment to completely change and reform your life by the power of God.

4) Becoming a child of God is by grace through faith and is not based on the merit of any works, but is the gift of God (Eph 2:8).

5) When by grace with godly sorrow and repentance through faith you believe in your heart (Rom 10:9) on the merits of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and ask God for forgiveness of sins, and believe by faith God has forgiven you (1Joh 1:9; Act 4:12 1Pet 1:9), you are converted and have become a child of God.

6) Freedom from sin (Rom 6:18) is obtained at the moment a person becomes a child of God (1Joh 1:8).

7) The sin that a person is freed from is willful acts of sins of commission and omission (Jam 4:17).

8) In order for a child of God to maintain victory over sin, the flesh, and the world (1Joh 2:15, 16), they must abide in Christ (Joh 15:4-6), in prayer obtain grace to help in time of need (Heb 4:16), be diligence to add the fruits of the Spirit to their life (2Pet 1:4-10), humble themselves before God (1Pet 5:5), build up their faith through reading the Word of God (Rom 10:17), hunger and thirst after righteousness (Mat 5:6), work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phi 2:12), and be led by the Spirit of God (Rom 8:14).

9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).

Really, there is no difference between becoming free from sin and becoming a child of God.

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76 Responses to “Sinless Perfection”

  1. 1. dennis wells Says:

    Hi Bob
    This article by Finney on SP is very well put.

  2. 2. Pete Says:

    Bob, Great blog site, I look forward to reading more. I don’t like Finney’s definition because he defined it as being accomplished without God’s grace and that is impossible. Victory over sin only is possible by God’s grace and not our own strength. With God all things are possible, we can indeed do all things, including obey if we follow Jesus. I believe a sinless perfection can be achieved in this life and I am aiming for that, seeking to be Holy as my Father in heaven is Holy, suffering in my flesh to cease from sin, and striving to enter the narrow gate. I hate how people twist Romans 7 into a false doctrine based on 1 or 2 passages. I believe 1 Cor 10:13 says there is not a single temptation we cannot overcome if we trust in God and the leadings of the Holy Spirit (assuming we are indeed Born Again). If the son sets us free, we shall be free indeed and that freedom wasnt from the penalty of sin, it was from the power of sin in our lives. May God bless you and lead you in your ministry.

  3. 3. Bob Mutch Says:

    Hi Pete,

    That definition was not written by Finney but was added to his book by some one that didn’t know what sinless perfection means. While most holiness people use the term Christian perfection versus sinless perfect, the definition is away off.

    I would hold that he Bible teaches that free-from-sin (willful or known) comes with salvation.

    Thanks!

    Bob.

  4. 4. Pete Says:

    THanks Bob for the clarification. When you say free from sin with salvation does that mean when we are resurrected in new bodies upon the Lord’s return or when we are fully sanctified in this body in this life? This opens up all kinds of issues, but if we are saved now, we are free from sin now unless of course we walk away and become unsaved, which I believe the bible teaches we can choose to do as unbelievable as it seems.

  5. 5. David Pace Says:

    Hey Bob and Pete, I agree with you both. Pete I believe you can walk in sinless perfection in this life. We can’t say we’ve never sinned but we can say that with the sinless Holy Spirit in us we can be made complete in Christ. In Christ David Pace

  6. 6. Bob Mutch Says:

    Hi David Pace,

    I think the term sinless perfection is not a good term to use. I like the Bible term “free from sin”. As you see in the above article “sinless perfection” means different things for different people. Sinless perfection is not a term that has every been used by “holiness scholars”. John Wesley preferred to use Christian perfection and here is why.

    A Plain Account of Christian Perfection 19. Q5:
    “(5.) The best of men still need Christ in his priestly office, to atone for their omissions, their short-comings, (as some not improperly speak,) their mistakes in judgment and practice, and their defects of various kinds. For these are all deviations from the perfect law, and consequently need an atonement. Yet that they are not properly sins, we apprehend may appear from the words of St. Paul, `He that loveth, hath fulfilled the law; for love is the fulfilling of the law.’ (Rom. 13:10.) Now, mistakes, and whatever infirmities necessarily flow from the corruptible state of the body, are noway contrary to love; nor therefore, in the Scripture sense, sin.

    To explain myself a little farther on this head: (1.) Not only sin, properly so called, (that is, a voluntary transgression of a known law,) but sin, improperly so called, (that is, an involuntary transgression of a divine law, known or unknown,) needs the atoning blood. (2.) I believe there is no such perfection in this life as excludes these involuntary transgressions which I apprehend to be naturally consequent on the ignorance and mistakes inseparable from mortality. (3.) Therefore sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself. (4.) I believe, a person filled with the love of God is still liable to these involuntary transgressions. (5.) Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please: I do not, for the reasons above-mentioned.

    Q. What advice would you give to those that do, and those that do not, call them so?

    A. Let those that do not call them sins, never think that themselves or any other persons are in such a state as that they can stand before infinite justice without a Mediator. This must argue either the deepest ignorance, or the highest arrogance and presumption.

    Let those who do call them so, beware how they confound these defects with sins, properly so called. But how will they avoid it? How will these be distinguished from those, if they are all promiscuously called sins? I am much afraid, if we should allow any sins to be consistent with perfection, few would confine the idea to those defects concerning which only the assertion could be true.”

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  7. 7. Bob Mutch Says:

    Hi Pete,

    The salvation that I was talking about is here and now. Today is the day of salvation but only those that endure to the end will be eternally saved.

    Thanks!

    Bob.

  8. 8. Bob Mutch Says:

    Hi Dennis Wells,

    This article was not written by Finney. The definition of “Sinless Perfection” was taken from the back of Finney’s Systematic Theology but was added by the editor as far as I can tell. That definition was written by either a person how had little understanding of the holiness position on sin free living or by a person that has no problem misrepresenting others.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  9. 9. Annie Hope Says:

    I feel that Charles Finny had a good understanding of Sinless Perfection but not what it means to be Born of God or have His seed, if we have really come to heart repentance and our flesh has been put to death by the Spirit than how can we continue to sin. We have the mind of Christ and He does not choose to sin and because He lives His live out in us we are empowered to resist Temptation this is because we have come close to God so Satan flees.

    1Jn 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the Children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not Love his brother.

  10. 10. shane Says:

    9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).

    James 4:17. Do you do all good things you know to do all of the time? If not, then it is sin and you loose your salvation.
    Here are some good things to do:
    1. give all of your money to the poor
    2. help clean up the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico
    3. say something nice to every person you meet
    4. tell your family you love them
    5. feed an orphan everyday
    6. feed a widow everyday
    7. feed a homeless person everyday
    8. pray constantly
    9. read your Bible constantly
    10. do community service everyday

    Remember now, if you don’t do these good things that you know to do then you have willfully sinned and lost your “salvation”.

    A salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all.

  11. 11. bob Says:

    Hi Shane,

    >>>Do you do all good things you know to do all of the time? If not, then it is sin and you loose your salvation.

    By the grace of God I have victory over every temptation. If you doubt where God offers that kind of grace please consider these scriptures.

    Lk 10:19 over all the power of the enemy
    Mk 9:23 all things are possible to him that believeth
    Mk 11:24 what things soever ye desire
    Rom 8:31 God be for us, who can be against us
    Rom 8:37 more than conquerors
    1Cor 10:13 make a way of escape
    1Cor 15:57 giveth us the victory
    2Cor 2:14 always causeth us to triumph
    2Cor 9:8 all grace abound toward you
    2Cor 12:9-10 my grace is sufficient
    Eph 1:3 blessed us with all spiritual blessings
    Eph 1:19 exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward
    Eph 3:20 able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask
    Eph 6:13 that ye may be able to stand
    Phil 2:13 to will and to do
    Col 1:29 which worketh in me mightily
    1Ti 1:14 grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant
    2Thess 3:3 keep you from evil
    Heb 4:16 find grace to help in time of need
    2Pet 1:3 given unto us all things
    2Pet 1:10 ye shall never fall
    1Joh 4:4 greater is he that is in you
    1Joh 5:4-5 whosoever is born of God overcometh
    Jude 1:24 able to keep you from falling

    >>>1. give all of your money to the poor
    2. help clean up the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico
    3. say something nice to every person you meet
    4. tell your family you love them
    5. feed an orphan everyday
    6. feed a widow everyday
    7. feed a homeless person everyday
    8. pray constantly
    9. read your Bible constantly
    10. do community service everyday

    I would agree with you on 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, but I don’t think we are called to #2 or #10.

    By the grace of God I live a missionial life and believe we are called to help the homeless, the orphan, and the widow.

    However I don’t we are called to give all our money away to the poor. But having said that we need to be more than willing to help out the poor with clothes, lodging, and food.

    >>>A salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all.

    I appears to me in scriptures that where are warning that our salvation is conditional.

    Here are a few of them.

    – IF you forgive you will be forgive.
    Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you

    – IF you continue in the Word then you are a disciple.
    Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed”;

    – IF you don’t abide in Christ you will be cast forth as a branch.
    Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    – IF you don’t continue in his goodness you will be cut off.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    – IF you continue in the faith you will be presented holy in his sight.
    Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    – IF you hold fast unto the end you are Christ’s house.
    Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    – IF you hold your confidence steadfast unto the end you are a partaker of Christ.
    Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

    – IF after you are saved you sin willfully there remains no sacrifice for your sins.
    Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    – IF you keep his commandments you know Christ.
    1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    – IF what you have heard remains in you, ye will continue in the Son.
    1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  12. 12. Pete Says:

    Jesus said one of the signs of the end in MT 24, was that MANY would fall away from the truth. The Lord is the Word and that is the truth. The signs are here. I see scores of passages that say we can fall away and I don’t need to know Greek to understand what the WORD says. Paul had not yet attained to salvation (Phil 3), he pressed on until the very end. We work it out with fear and trembling. Those that claim we cannot lose salvation, have NO FEAR OF GOD and therefore are without understanding. We cannot lose salvation it so long as we CHOOSE, with our own free will, to LOVE Him with all our heart. That is the simplicity and purity of a true devotion to Christ. Anything else is just RELIGION. Certainly a sin in and by itself does not lose our salvation, it is when we practice sin and walk as a double minded harlot that we are lost and blinded to the truth. God sends the blindness, he sends it as part of His judgment.

    1 John 1:8-9, says we are forgiven when we confess our sin but that sin is one that is committed out of weakness or a weakness/stumble, we are not practicing it and perverting the grace of God into a license for sin (Jude 4). We are warned a hundred times counting the prophets to not be deceived about this point. Where the line in our hearts that separate practicing sin from stumbling in a sin is, I don’t know but God knows. That is why we are to fear God and not play around with sin. If perfection is not our aim, then Jesus, the real one, is not really our LORD. We are just playing church and being religious.

    Many are worshipping the image of the beast, a false Jesus that has been exalted in the place of God by the traditions of men. The end comes with a flood (Daniel 9:26, Mt 24:39, Rev 12:15, etc) of deception and all that deception takes us away from godliness and a walk of purity. Mercy is abundant but not unlimited. Mercy has been mixed up with grace and the gospel has been perverted just as was predicted would be the case.

    Praise God for His Spirit that instantly convicts us of sin. Our Father brings discipline upon us out of LOVE in hopes we will respond to it. If we do not respond, and practice sin, following a false gospel of perverted grace that twists repentance and accomodates sin, we are illegitimate and NOT SONS says my Bible. If we really love God, we will obey His commandments and if we think we can retain our salvation and yet not love God, we are sorely deceived and have been swept away by the flood of lies which is also the God sent delusion. It is already here.

  13. 13. shane Says:

    Perhaps some of my “good things” were a little over the top. But if you know to do something good and you don’t do it then it is sin.

    Fortunately the true Christian has had the righteousness of Jesus imputed to him. The imputed righteousness of Jesus is something Charles Finney could not grasp. I am not sure how he could not see that in Scripture(Romans3:22-26,Romans 4:5). Perhaps Charles Finney was greater than the Apostle Paul? It seems like Paul struggled with sin(Romans7) but did Paul lose his salvation?

    So anyways, it seems as if you are teaching that you have to keep from sinning or in order to be saved. Based on this statement:
    9)If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).
    Then in order to keep that “salvation” you will have to keep the entire Law. Feasts, animal sacrifices, commandments, and etc… If you fail to keep any part of it at any time, then you are in sin.

  14. 14. bob Says:

    Hi Pete,

    I think most of your points I would agree with. I would see a big difference between some one that falls into sin by weakness and some one that professes salvation but loves intermittent sinning and love to think they have heaven and their sin at the same time.

    Adam and Eve fell by one sin and I see no difference now. Sin bring death (separation from God) to the sinning soul. Adam and Eve didn’t need to practice sinning to fall they fell on the seemingly “small sin” of eating some fruit that they knew they shouldn’t eat.

    >>>Those that claim we cannot lose salvation, have NO FEAR OF GOD and therefore are without understanding.

    I think you are being to judgmental here. With what judgment you judge God will judge you in the same way. I couldn’t say George Whitefield, Johnathan Edwards, Robert McCheney, Charles Finney, Paul Washer, and John Piper have no fear of God and are without understanding. I would be more inclined to think that some one that is willing to judge them as you appear to have, to have no fear of God and to be without understanding.

    The ministry of each of these dear brothers in Christ is doing more in a day that you and me together will do in a life time.

    Any one that would condemn these good man as deceived I would question where that person is really saved.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  15. 15. Pete Says:

    Bob, My message didn’t come across the way I intended. I judge no one’s heart but was stating what I see as a foundational truth about GOD that has all been cut out of the Babylon Church. I see the fear of God as the foundation upon which all true knowledge of God is based. Without that fear, Isaiah and later Jesus said men would be hearing but not hear, seeing and not see. Paul said they would be ever learning but never able to come to knowledge of the truth.

    I love Paul Washer, he teaches the fear of God, he teaches a walk of holiness. So my apologies to anyone that was offended, but I do see where God Himself sends blindness and delusion upon all that love sin. I see that in all the Prophets and the gospels and the Epistles. It is a common persistent message that was never changed by the coming of our Messiah. Believe you me, I am not in any way trying to accomodate sin but I also don’t want anyone to be discourage and equate losing their salvation with making a mistake. If they love God, they will get back up and keep walking immediately. If they don’t really, they will rationalize their sin as acceptable. We cannot serve two masters and any sin we hold onto we tell God we love it more than Him. If we do that, Jesus is not our LORD and we are deceived. I think we are in pretty close agreement on that but in any case, this is a good discussion and edifying blog and I commend you on that.

  16. 16. bob Says:

    Hi Pete,

    I think that love is the foundation on what all true knowledge of God is based. Fear of hell is a good reason to get save but it is going to take the love of God shed around in your heart by the Holy Spirit to keep you all the way through.

    I don’t think anyone was offended I just think we need to be careful what we say about others that disagree with us on doctrine. I would how ever feel like a liberal Eternal Security where a person can have a “moment of faith” and then go and live in sin all their life and still go to heaven is false and those that teach that doctrine will more than likely be lost as they will have the blood of believers on their hands.

    Do you have a website or blog Pete? Are you on Facebook? Where do you live? I would love to talk to you on the phone some time Lord willing!

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  17. 17. shane Says:

    When I speak of eternal security, I mean a true Christian will persevere (1Pet1:5). They will not fall away from the faith and if they do they were never saved to begin with (1John2:19). They will press on to maturity. Not a simple making a profession of Jesus once and then living with no change in your life.

    So either: A. The Bible contradicts itself on the security of the believer or B. the Scriptures on the subject don’t mean what we think they mean.

    If you want to use John15:1-6 to show that a believer can lose their salvation. Then according to verse 6 they cannot get it back once it is lost. These verses never say that the branch can be grafted back in. It is ultimately gathered and burned.

    Considering Jesus says He will never cast out one of His sheep (John6:37), all that believe in Him have eternal life (John3:16, John5:24, John10:28) and true believers have been predestined to salvation, called by God to salvation, justified by God, and ultimately glorified (Rom8:30, Acts13:48, Eph1:4), the true believer is a new creation (John3:7,2Cor5:17) has God living inside them (Rom8:9) has been sealed by the Spirit (2Cor1:22, Eph1:13) and is no longer God’s enemy (Rom5:1) and has Jesus interceding on our behalf (Heb7:25) I cannot help but believe that the TRUE BELIEVER is safe and secure in their salvation and the “warning” Scriptures are talking about something or someone else, of which there is plenty on the web to study. I couldn’t possibly post answers to all of them in this post.

    Anyways, that’s my two or three cents on the matter.

  18. 18. Pete Says:

    We all could write a book on this topic. I see eternal security the way it is taught being a doctrine of demons. Jesus was quoted saying MANY would FALL AWAY in the end. He also said three overlooked words with huge significance in speaking of the end in Luke 17. REMEMBER LOTS WIFE. She was saved, she was ready to be escorted out of Sodom to safety, but she turned her heart back into the world and lost her life as a result. Paul had not yet attained to it, he said he pressed on and that the athelete had to finish the race to receive the prize. We are told not to SHRINK BACK (Heb 10:30-32) from the Word and be destroyed. Following God and Loving Him is a choice, otherwise it is not love. We get to make that choice every day. The Lord will never cast us off, we cannot be snatched away against our will, but we can certainly decide/choose to turn our hearts away from God. That is why God brings the enemy to us, to test our faith constantly. Jeremiah 6:27. Jesus was tested constantly not just in the desert. Luke 4:18. If we could not fall away, there would be no need for God to test us. The good news to me is that IF IF IF, we stay focused on Him, then we are secure, but the moment we turn our mind and our hearts elsewhere we are fair game to drawn away into sin and rebellion. Indeed the story told throughout the Prophets which Jesus did not come to abolish.

  19. 19. Mike Helms Says:

    Bob,

    You are in very serious error when you make a statement like this:

    9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).

    You quote from 1 John but apparently have missed 1 John 1:8, 10

    “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

    You also have missed, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, The Righteous One.” (1 John 2:1)

    You are trying to tell me you have not committed one single willful sin since becoming born again?

    Do you realize what you’re even saying? Not only are you deceiving yourself as it says in 1 John 1:8, but you make the cross of Christ of none effect! If I believe you, than all it takes is me messing up one time to undo what Christ has done on the cross. I happen to believe His sacrifice is effectual and complete; Christ is my righteousness, I have none of my own. He paid the whole price and bore the complete penalty for my sin- past, present and future.

    You said: “Adam and Eve fell by one sin and I see no difference now. Sin brings death (separation from God) to the sinning soul. Adam and Eve didn’t need to practice sinning to fall they fell on the seemingly “small sin” of eating some fruit that they knew they shouldn’t eat.”

    Bob, the difference is Jesus!

    “Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.” (Romans 5:16)

    “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (John 10:28)

  20. 20. bob Says:

    Hi Mike Helms

    >>>You quote from 1 John but apparently have missed 1 John 1:8, 10

    No, I am aware of 1Joh 1:8, 10. I just don’t view it in the same light as you do.

    You can read my view on these two scriptures in my article Who Are Liars, Deceived, and in Darkness?

    >>>You also have missed, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, The Righteous One.” (1 John 2:1)

    No, I am aware of 1Joh 2:1 also. John was lead of the Spirit to write that them don’t sin but also at the same time brings out the truth if you disobey God and sin against him there is a way for forgiveness.

    >>>You are trying to tell me you have not committed one single willful sin since becoming born again?

    I am been living for God for around 30 years and no I can’t say that I have not sinned one willful sin. I do how ever believe the standard of the Bible is that we don’t sin. By the grace of God sin is not a way of life for me. I have had a number of times over the paste 30 years that I have fell into sin and even into practicing sin. But that certianly is my not testimony that my Christian experience is one of sinning and repenting. I find the grace of God is able to keep me from sinning.

    >>>Do you realize what you’re even saying?

    Yes I am very well aware of what I am saying. I have standing against sin and you seem to be standing for it.

    >>>but you make the cross of Christ of none effect!

    I would see those that stand for sin in the Christian’s live to be holding for the same experiece that the blood of bulls and goats brought. One of sinning and repenting. That makes the cross of Christ of none effect. I uphold the power in blood of Jesus. I saves not only form the penalty of sin but from the love and power of sin. And if you endure to the end you will be delivered from the very presents of sin.

    >>>If I believe you, than all it takes is me messing up one time to undo what Christ has done on the cross.

    Man sinning doesn’t undo any think Christ has done.

    >>>I happen to believe His sacrifice is effectual and complete; Christ is my righteousness, I have none of my own.

    Amen. That is a good start. Now go and sin no more! Trust in the power and promises of God.

    >>>He paid the whole price and bore the complete penalty for my sin- past, present and future.

    He has paid for all sins, even the sins of those who are now in hell. But only repented and forsaken sins will be remitted.

    >>>Bob, the difference is Jesus!

    Are you saying that now Jesus has given us a license to sin. Adam and Eve were judged for sinning and cast out of the garden but now with Jesus we have a license to sin in that sin doesn’t effect us? If this is the case you are listening to the lie of the devil “Ye shall not surely die” Gen 3:4. Sinning brings spiritual death (Jam 1:15).

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  21. 21. Mike Helms Says:

    Hi Bob,

    Thanks for your reply.

    Since you admit, “I have had a number of times over the past 30 years that I have fell into sin and even into practicing sin.”

    Can we at least agree that your statement is wrong then when you say: “If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).”

    By your own words, you would be saying that YOU no longer have eternal life and have become “a child of the devil”. You clearly do not believe that is the case in regard to yourself, so why make such a statement?

    I went to the post you referred to concerning 1 John 1:8. I noticed that there are others who are also trying to warn you that what you are believing is wrong doctrine.

    You said in that post that 1 John 1:8, “is one of the most quoted scriptures to support a sinning Christian life.” In your reply to me you suggested that by using that scripture I was supporting a “sinful Christian life” as well. Bob, that is complete foolishness! I do not support a sinning Christian lifestyle. Jesus came to do away with sin, and we are called to repent of sin and walk in holiness, so please don’t even go down that road. You have already admitted that you’ve sinned in the last 30 years, and you still believe you’re a child of God… so I ask again, will you please consider taking down your statement since it directly contradicts what you’ve just told me about your own life?

    You have twisted almost everything I said in my previous post to make it appear that I am advocating a loose lifestyle. Just because I believe that the blood of Jesus is enough to make me acceptable to God, and that Christ’s sacrifice for me is my ONLY hope for heaven, and that He ALONE is my righteousness… does NOT mean I am playing free and loose with grace. It means I believe the gospel; it does NOT mean I am advocating that Christians should live carelessly or that we have a license to sin.

    I am not the only one to write you about these things. Perhaps you should consider what we’re saying?

    Mike

  22. 22. bob Says:

    Hi Mike Helms,

    >>>Can we at least agree that your statement is wrong then when you say: “If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).”

    No not at all. Yours or mine experience don’t have any refection on the teaches of the Bible.

    >>>You clearly do not believe that is the case in regard to yourself, so why make such a statement?

    While a person is unrepentant and commiting willful sin they are a child of the devil. They may repent and change.

    >>>I noticed that there are others who are also trying to warn you that what you are believing is wrong doctrine.

    Christianity for the most part doesn’t believe that you can live above sin and they are living in a life style of intermitten sinning. So of course they don’t want to hear that they can’t live this way and still be a child of God.

    >>>In your reply to me you suggested that by using that scripture I was supporting a “sinful Christian life” as well.

    My comment was that “you seem to be standing for it [stand for sin].” There is a different between says it appears or seems like you are supporting some thign verses accusing a person of supporting some thing.

    >>>You have twisted almost everything I said in my previous post to make it appear that I am advocating a loose lifestyle.

    Please point out one thing I have twisted and I will quickly change it and apoligize. You appear to hold that a Christian will continue to sin until they are saved from sinning by death. YOu seem to hold that this will have no effect on their eternal destiny. If this is the case, note I says seems, they yes you are supporting a sinning Christian experience.

    I do not support a sinning Christian lifestyle.

    I hope this is the case. But any one that changes grace into a license to sin and that hold all sins are already forgive included the ones they have yet to commit is in my view supporting a sining lifestyle. It seems this is your position.

    >>>Just because I believe that the blood of Jesus is enough to make me acceptable to God, and that Christ’s sacrifice for me is my ONLY hope for heaven, and that He ALONE is my righteousness… does NOT mean I am playing free and loose with grace.

    I would agree. It is not these statements that I noted that seem to imply that you are turning grace into a license to sin. It was the following statements.

    <<<He paid the whole price and bore the complete penalty for my sin- past, present and future.

    <<<You are in very serious error when you make a statement like this: 9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life

    >>>I am not the only one to write you about these things. Perhaps you should consider what we’re saying?

    Most professing Christians I know believe you can sin and that it doesn’t effect you standing concerning eternal life with God. This is the same lie that Satan told Eve — “Ye shall not surely die” Gen 3:4. I have chosen to not accept that lie.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  23. 23. Mike Helms Says:

    Bob,

    It sounds like you’re trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ… It’s all about you, not what He’s done for you, that I keep hearing in your words.

    You also seem to believe that you can have eternal life, lose it, get it back again, lose it again, get it back… and so on. You cannot find that in the bible.

    Thanks for hearing what I’ve had to say. I think we’d just be going round and round if we continued, so I think I will bow out at this point.

    Mike

  24. 24. bob Says:

    Hi Mike,

    >>>It sounds like you’re trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ

    No, I am trusting 100% in the power of God.

    >>>It’s all about you, not what He’s done for you

    Not at all. It is all about the power of God and what God has and can do for us.

    >>>You also seem to believe that you can have eternal life, lose it, get it back again, lose it again, get it back… and so on.

    I understand you don’t see that in the Bible. You appear to me you feel like you can sin as a believer and it doesn’t effect your eternal state. I think this is a wrong view. This is the snake told Eve, you shall not die, and that was a lie. She was separated from God.

    I would be happy to sit down with you and look at what the Bible has to say about this subject any time you are in the area.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  25. 25. Annie Hope Says:

    Hi Bob I have been watching the feed back and input and because we continue to learn until we are perfected or what we have learned through Jesus Christ our only Teacher is confirmed and continues to be reinforced, I would like to share again in regards to Sinless Perfection in answer to some of the comments offered.

    John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come.

    If we have Jesus Christ within and do His works or even greater we will also be like Him and have His holiness, His sovereignty, His Love, His wisdom, His power, His grace, and His compassion, which means also we will no longer sin when we are Born again and have God’s seed as you can see by the Scripture below. If we do the works Jesus does and walk in Him we will indeed reflect Him and He does not sin, that is what it means by our Love is made complete, as you know perfect Love has no fear this is because fear is to do with sin and punishment, but in Christ Jesus we no longer sin so we do not fear punishment and our past sins have been forgiven and so we are cleansed from all unrighteousness in other words our flesh has been put to death by the Spirit as we chose to walk in Love by His empowering.

    1 John 4:17 In this way, Love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like Him.

    1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the Children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not Love his brother.

    So what happens when a person falls into sin before they are perfected, the Scriptures tell us that if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defence Jesus Christ, the Righteous One 1 John 2.

    We need to remember there is a difference from falling into sin and falling away or rejecting the Lord and His forgiveness and Salvation. So regardless of the tag some may put on themselves if they do this they were never saved in the first place and their works or actions will show this. They cannot be brought back to heart repentance if there was none in the first place Hebrews 6:6 and to pretend to do so makes Christ out to be a liar because by their hardness of heart which is shown in sinful actions and no repentance they are saying His death is unable to free them from the bondage of sin. The real danger in this is if they know the Truth but continue to sin till death what more can be done, they are rejecting Christ who is the only way to have Salvation and freedom and this is the unforgivable sin.

    Sadly this is so regardless of the fact that they may have been in fellowship in the Body of Christ and have received Spiritual gifts, we remember that even Judas was given the power to heal and cast out demons just like the other Disciples, but as Jesus tells us he never came to heart repentance even in his death and because God knows all things he was chosen to fulfil Scripture but he was an enemy of the cross and Satan controlled him because of his lack of heart repentance. This was not the same as the rest of the Disciples who showed their real heart repentance through the waters of Baptism and so were also Baptised with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and by choosing to walk in Love and being perfected in Christ Jesus they were righteous right up to their earthly death .

    Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

    God knows that until we are perfected we may sin and He makes provision for this in Christ Jesus when we repent, but it is not His will that we do sin, He wants us to choose to walk in Love by the empowering of the Holy Spirit so our flesh will be put to death and we can be perfected.

    Thank you once again for your time and for the opportunity Bob to share again my heart whisperings. – Christian Love Annie Hope

  26. 26. bob Says:

    Hi Annie,

    >>>I feel that Charles Finny had a good understanding of Sinless Perfection

    I am sure what I posted in my article as a definition of Sinless Perfection, that I took from Finney’s Systematic Theology, was not written by Finney. Finney was more principled than to misrepresent the Wesleyan doctrine of Christian Perfect to the extreme that the editors who added that definition did. But yes I think Finney clearly understood what the Wesleyans taught concerning Christian Perfect while he clearly didn’t agree with it. He was not only was a well read Theologian but Asa Maham, a well known Wesleyan, was President of Oberlin and Finney would have had daily contact with him for a number of years.

    Wikipedia: Asa Mahan
    Wikipedia: Christian Perfection
    Scripture Doctrine of Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan

    >>>but not what it means to be Born of God or have His seed

    Well he knew enough to have been used of God to convert over 200,000 people to Christ. I smile went people who have been used little by God for the salvation of souls think they know more about leading people to Christ those those that have been used mightily by God in the leading of people to Christ.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  27. 27. bob Says:

    Hi Shane,

    >>>The imputed righteousness of Jesus is something Charles Finney could not grasp.

    What do you feel like Finney didn’t grasp about imputed righteousness?

    >>>It seems like Paul struggled with sin(Romans7) but did Paul lose his salvation?

    Romans 7 is Paul’s experience pre-conversion.

    >>>So anyways, it seems as if you are teaching that you have to keep from sinning or in order to be saved. Based on this statement:

    Yes, to stay saved you have to forsake sin and not go back to it.

    Bob.

  28. 28. bob Says:

    Hi Shane,

    >>>When I speak of eternal security…

    I don’t really want to turn this thread into a ES discussion.

    Bob.

  29. 29. Mike Helms Says:

    Hi Bob,

    I saw this on the thread today and feel you’re being shortsighted by your statement:

    “Well he knew enough to have been used of God to convert over 200,000 people to Christ. I smile went people who have been used little by God for the salvation of souls think they know more about leading people to Christ those those that have been used mightily by God.”

    God also used George Whitefield mightly in the Great Awakening and he believed nothing of the sort as you do concerning being “sinless”. So your argument really doesn’t hold water.

    Mike

  30. 30. bob Says:

    Hi Mike,

    >>>I saw this on the thread today and feel you’re being shortsighted by your statement

    No, it is a common argument that I bring up for those with a my-way-or-the-highway doctrinal position. God used George Whitefield a 5-point Calvinist, Charles Finney a 4-point Calvinist that rejected the doctrines of Original Sin and Original Guilt, and John Wesley a Wesleyan-Arminian. Who are we to judge those as false teachers that God has seen fit to let them remain believing diverse teachings but at the same time mightly used them for the conversion of souls.

    >>>God also used George Whitefield mightly in the Great Awakening and he believed nothing of the sort as you do concerning being “sinless”.

    Not my point was about “leading people to Christ” not about the definition of sin or concerning the doctrines of unconditional election vs conditional election or conditional security vs eternal security or perseverance of the saints.

    Finney was not a Wesleyan-Arminian, he was a 4-point Calvinist who rejected Original Sin and Original Guilt. I would disagree with most of what Finney taught when it comes to dogma but I could never say he didn’t understand “imputed righteousness of Jesus” as he lead thousands of souls into that experience and I still smile when I hear people stating that Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards, Finney, or others used mightly for the saving of souls, didn’t understand the different aspects of salvation.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  31. 31. Annie Hope Says:

    Perhaps Bob since we are both still alive our Pentecost will also come and many will be won to the Lord through the empowering of the Holy Spirit in us.

    Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    God does not count heads …..He counts hearts.

    Many Blessings Annie Hope

  32. 32. bob Says:

    Hi Annie,

    >>>Perhaps Bob since we are both still alive our Pentecost will also come and many will be won to the Lord through the empowering of the Holy Spirit in us.

    Amen, lets us pray for revival in North America. Lets us pray for personal revival, for revival in congregations, and for Christianity as a whole. While I am not looking or hoping to be used in a mighty way I am looking to be used in the way the Lord wants me to be.

    >>>God does not count heads …..He counts hearts.

    Amen on that one. We wants both!

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  33. 33. Annie Hope Says:

    Yes Bob I agree and I also want what ever God wants as you do and He is not just about numbers, and yet He is about numbers. Jesus’ admonition that the Pharisees were white washed tombs shows us what God wants… they did all the outward things but there was no heart repentance and they numbered many, sadly today in the Churches some walk the same road … How excited the Lord is as Scriptures tell us when someone really repents from the heart, the Angels rejoice in Heaven and those who have truly repented show a changed life and this is not just in words but in actions too an both will be from their Godly heart focus.

    God numbers one soul that repents in sorrow and humility of great value as we see with the prostitute who wet Jesus feet with her tears in sorrow because of what she had done wrong or Zacchaeus who showed his repentance in actions…although he did not earn his repentance by his actions nor did he have to make himself do the right thing he chose to and the Spirit empowered him to do God’s will a who would have keept him strong till the end.

    God values each one who truly repents more than 100,000 + that do so outwardly but have no change of heart . But like God and you Bob I want Millions + to come to true heart repentance and I want God to use me to do this, why because this is what He wants for us all, but we limit Him using us because we believe we may not be called to do this or we don’t have confidence in our ability to do so, but as we are often told it’s not our ability but our availability, God will indeed equip us and give us the resources to do His will if we believe and obey His guidelines but we may do this in differant ways. Jesus said go and make disciples… He did not say but only one each or a few if you are able.

    Women are to remain faithful to their God given role the same as Men so in regard to the Church and Marriage, Men are to be in Leadership and to be in Authority so a Women’s role does not include Preaching where you are needed to be in Authority. Woman both in their Marriage and in the Church are to be Helpmates, Physically , Mentally, Emotionally and Spiritually as the early Christian woman were.

    In the flesh Women are not to teach with their own understanding because they can be deceived, but like Deborah the Judge and Pricilla etc they can speak God’s Truth when anointed and lead by the Spirit but must remain under His Authority and within their role as Deborah shows us. Deborah did not see herself as a Leader but as a Mother and she rebuked Barak for wanting her to lead the Israelites with him.

    But in Marriage and the Church both Men and Women are needed to fulfil God’s purposes because even though Adam was in fellowship with God … God still said it is not good for man to be alone and so He created a Helpmate for him, and so it is today unless someone has the gift of being Celebrant and if so God will fulfil their needs, but they will still need the Love, Encouragement, Support, Council, uplifting and Godly advise of their Brothers and Sisters in the Lord like us all…

    Christian Love and Peace to you in abundance Bob – Kind Regards Annie Hope

  34. 34. Chalmer Holiday Says:

    “The Doctrine of Sinless Perfection”
    Do the words “sinless perfection” occur anywhere in Gods word as stated? No, it does not and so therefore does this disprove the doctrine as being the scriptural truth of the matter” Again no, it does not disprove the truth of the matter. We need first of all to examine the word “perfect” and try to see exactly what it means and the condition of what something is that is perfect. Let us look at what Jesus said as stated in Matthew 5:48 that says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” From this scripture we know that as far as God is concerned he is perfect. And we know also that God certainly does not have any sin. Since we are told to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect, does this mean that we are to be sinless as he is, or can we be perfect as he is and still possess sin in our life? How can we be perfect as God is if we still possess sin in our life? God is perfect without sin, but who in their right mind would believe that we would be perfect as the Father is even though we have sin in our life? Does not this belief reveal that there would be different degrees of perfection if one can be perfect with sin in their life? How can man be perfect with sin in his life when we know that there is certainly no sin in God who is perfect? We are told to be perfect even as God is perfect, so how can we be perfect if we have sin in our life? If we have sin in our life and we believe we are perfect, then this reveals that we are not perfect as God is. God has no sin and he is perfect, so how can we be perfect as he is if we have sin in our life?

    People just don’t understand the truth about being perfect and how that it can be achieved in one’s life. Let me say first of all that it is totally one hundred percent impossible for a man to be perfect and live a sinless life simply because he without Christ can do absolutely nothing, as Jesus said in John 15:5 saying, “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” Note carefully that Jesus said that without him we can do nothing. Now does not Matthew 5:48 tell us to be perfect as the Father in heaven is? Who in their right mind can say they can be perfect and sinless as God is without possessing the power of Christ in their life? Now I asked this question to say and ask this question. What can we do through Christ that strengthens us as Paul said in Philippians 4:13 that says, “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” Now since Jesus told us to be perfect even as the Father is, (Matt 5:48) then can we be perfect through Christ that strengthens us, or is this one thing that we cannot do through Christ? Does not “ALL THINGS” that we can do through Christ include or exclude being perfect as the Father is? What did Paul have to say about being perfect? Listen to what he says in Philippians 3:12-14 that says, “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
    Do you have any idea as to what state or spiritual condition a person is in if they are truly in Christ Jesus? If not then listen to Paul again in what he said in Colossians 1:28 that says, “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man “PERFECT IN CHRIST JESUS.” This “IN CHRIST” position is where perfection is, and do you know why? Listen to what John says about this as stated in I John 3:5 that says, “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” There is absolutely no sin in Christ and if any man be in Christ will there be any sin in his life? Not according to Paul that said in II Corinthians 5:17 saying, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Is the new creature still the old sinning creature? Now let me show you the simple truth concerning what sinless perfection is and how it definitely can and must be achieved in this present life. Listen to Paul tells us these words in Galatians 2:20 that says, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Do you hear Paul saying that the life that was now being manifested in and through his mortal flesh was the very sinless, and eternal life of Jesus Christ and not him that was living the life? If this is not sufficient to convince you, then listen to Paul again in what he tells us in Colossians 3:3-4 that says, “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” Do you hear Paul saying “when Christ, who is our life?” Calvinist teaches that they have the imputed righteousness of Christ, which would simply mean that they are only counted as being righteous and that God cannot see their sin. This is nothing but a devilish doctrine that Paul warns us about in I Timothy 4:1 and millions of people are believing it. The truth of the matter is that it will be the very “life of Christ” (not just counted as being righteous and still living in sin) manifested in and thorough our mortal body. Listen how Paul verifies this truth in what he said in II Coritnhians 4:10-11 that says, “Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.” So in closing let Christ live his life through you and quit struggling in vain trying to live for him.

  35. 35. Annie Hope Says:

    Thank you Chalmer Holiday for clarifying the Truth of Sinless Perfection and I agree it does appear in Scripture many times over,

    It surprises me that man will accept readily the Truth of the Trinity or the Rapture when the words are not in the Scriptures but not believe in Sinless perfection, yes we know the Trinity is referring to the Godhead and that the Rapture is clearly shown in Luke and Revelation and no doubt other Scriptures. We know also Aids is mentioned by Paul not of course the actual word but it is the same as the others, such as D.N.A and Dinosaurs they are modern words not used in the original Greek or Hebrew but their meanings are very clearly shown in the Scriptures.

    Like you Chalmer Holiday God has shown me many Scrictures that confirm Sinless Perfection but I was excited to find more as I read your summery of it, thank you so much for taking the time to share and help others to understand God’s Truth and as you say Jesus did not just come to forgive our sins but came to set us free from the bondage of them and in so doing we are refined, purified and made spotless not only are we covered but we are washed in the blood of the lamb and perfected. Daniel 11:35 – Ephesians 5:24-28 – 12:10 – 2 Peter 3:14

  36. 36. Annie Hope Says:

    Dear Chalmer Hoilday I must apoligise for the mix up with the Scripture I was using the N.I.V but also forgot to put the name of one of the books see below..

    2Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Many Blesings Annie Hope

  37. 37. Believer Says:

    Hi Bob,

    I recently found your blog site and find your views interesting and not far from what God showed me when I was saved. Unlike Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, Hudson Taylor and others, I was saved by God alone – no church, no “hearing” the bible, no preacher and no intervention by human beings. Only God Himself in all His glory – my testimony is very similar to that of Paul the Apostle. That being said, I received complete sanctification (although sanctification is lived out continually from glory to glory) and justification and a full understanding of the heart of God the moment I was saved – all “downloaded” if you will into my heart.
    A few points I would like to share that you might find of interest – my beliefs are based only on what the Holy Spirit shows me, and not the teaching of men. As such, I find that my views are consistent with the bible yet heretical to the church organization in general. The true church consists of believers scattered across time and space who truly know the Lord, are given over to Him completely, and live for Him alone. They walk as Jesus walked. The church organization is Satan’s counterfeit of the church that you see in buildings and christian organizations around the world. They do not teach the full gospel of freedom from sin and grace as the power of God working through man. Many teach 95% truth, as is the age old custom of the devil when quoting scripture.
    The life I live in Christ far exceeds the “law” in all ways, including keeping the speed limit (local ordinances not part of Moses law), keeping the ten commandments and loving God with all my heart mind and strength and loving my neighbor as myself. One thing people seldom understand is that Jesus was trying to show people that the law could only be kept by the heart and not by the behavior – that is – the behavior follows the state of the heart. Thus – with the sabbath for example – the Pharisees taught many behaviors in an attempt to “show” their righteousness. But Jesus obeyed the HEART of the law – the way He kept the sabbath kept God’s purpose for the sabbath, not man’s show of keeping the sabbath. Similarly, if anyone looks at a woman and lusts after her, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. Punishable by death.
    When I was saved I kept the law and the heart of the law completely by God’s strength alone. It was impossible for me to lust after women because God changed my heart, and the behaviors that flowed from me originated from within. Because God made me white as snow and perfect the moment I was saved, and taught me that I was no longer a slave to sin and no longer an ancestor of Adam but was made by Him into a descendant – a son – of God, sin no longer had a place in me.
    Another truth – not only will your life be a reflection of Jesus on this earth, you will be randomly hated by people for no apparent reason, you will live a life of love for everyone in spite of how they treat you. Their response to you has no effect on the power of God’s love for them through His grace manifested through you
    You will always be tempted – even as Jesus was tempted – but for every temptation He will provide a way of escape. Escape typically comes from accepting the death to the old man that Christ accomplished in you on the cross – in being dead to selfishness, selfish motivations – any right to self – you have come to a place to receive the power of God to love others in impossible ways.
    Everything you do can be done through Christ who strengthens you. In fact, any reliance on our own abilities is faithlessness and thus sin (anything done without faith is sin). What I speak of is living a life 100% immersed in the Spirit of God every though, every action, complete. When I write this it is by the Holy Spirit in me guiding me in what to say or not say right now. When I encourage or lovingly correct others, I speak only the words of the Holy Spirit – the words are not my own.
    You may find this disagreeable – but I know that when I encourage others in Christ-likeness, it is sin for me to provide them a list of “How to’s” to try to set them on the path unless specifically guided by the Holy Spirit to do so for a specific individual for a specific moment. The reason is that telling people what to do defeats the heart of Christianity. Christianity is a life of BEING that results in a life of DOING – not a life of DOING in order to make yourself right with God. The moment you are saved you have been made right with God – but until you believe the truth it is has no power to become manifest in your life. Churches teach that the way I live is impossible – Pastors rebuke me often for BEING who God made me to be, according to His scriptures, because of their own failings and often their having not received the truth of the complete gospel message of the good news of salvation. I love them as I love everyone to be used as a vessel to speak the words the Holy Spirit would give me to encourage them towards Christ. He is the center and meaning of Christianity, not my obedience to Him, nor my ability to do miracles or speak in tongues or do good to the poor. Giving people a list of how to’s only typically encourages their flesh, their selfish abilities – and thus usually draws people away from God. All Christian “self help” books are from Satan – he introduced the idea of helping ourselves in the Garden of Eden.
    However, something nobody seems to understand about walking in the Lord is that it will look only what the Lord wishes. Let go of any pre-conceived ideas you may have about what it would look like for Christ to walk on the earth today – the Lord Himself knows what He wills. Trying to look a certain way, behave a certain way, or keep commandments by our own power rather than by the overflow of God’s grace manifested in us leads to death.
    Can we sin in such a state? No. But the choice is always available even as it was for Christ Himself. Can we be deceived into falling from grace? Yes. Falling from grace is not losing salvation – it is losing Christ-likeness in our daily lives. Is there forgiveness if we fall from grace by failing, even once or even a million times to do something outside of the power of the Holy Spirit? Yes – if I don’t believe that I can sin in an infinite variety and quantity of ways and know that God loves me no less, how can I come to His throne of grace in times of need? Will I not run from God if I believe that one failing, one sin, one act not done in faith separates me from His love? But understand, it is the very knowledge in my heat that I don’t HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to be loved by God that makes it possible for me to never do anything in my flesh. If I didn’t believe in His forgiveness for any sins of thought or behavior or faithlessness or unbelief then I would have no ability to receive God’s grace to walk even as He walked.

    Be blessed – in His love

  38. 38. Rocky Rochette Says:

    I wish I could find who runs this site and what his or her background is.

    There is NO such thing as sinless perfection until we die. Period.

    Becoming a child of God is by His calling. We are saved by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone. That’s it.

    We are to commit our lives to being disciples of Christ and study his word and learn to walk in His ways, but the Apostles themselves couldn’t do that. I could site examples, but apparently the people on this board all seem brainwashed that we can be sin free.

    If so, why did Paul say for us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. The operative word here is RENEWING. That is an ongoing process that takes our whole lives. If sin was wiped out there would be no point in Paul making that statement because we would already be perfect according to the folks who subscribe to the main them of this board.

    Amazing.

  39. 39. Pete Says:

    We have a mediator to confess our future sin to and be cleansed anew. The make one mistake and you lose your salvation is a false doctrine. But the contrary is also true, we cannot practice sin and claim to be a real Christian. We are a liar and the truth is not in us, if we live like that.

    I don’t subscribe to the absolute requirement of sinlessness, BUT that darn well better be our aim. If you are not aiming for perfection, Jesus does not have your whole heart and is not really your LORD despite what one may say with their lips. God chose us first, absolutely but we must receive the grace and then walk in it. We can in our own free will rebel against God and receive grace in vain, frustrate it, fall from it. Do not be deceived my little children, the one who practices righteousness is righteous, the one who practices sin is of the devil.

    2 Cor 6:1 – DO NOT receive the grace of God in vain

    The false grace theology has turned it into a license for immorality. Do not confuse God’s mercy with God’s grace. Mercy is forgiveness, grace is power to overcome and be free from the bondage to sin

    Luke 6:46 Jesus asks why do you call me LORD LORD and not do what I say?

    Very sad that Peter’s prediction that the words of Paul would be twisted in egregrious error regarding grace has come true. 2 Peter 3:14-18. We must learn righteousness, we must pursue it, we must choose to do it. We must act upon the grace of God that has appeared to all of us. That is true faith, we act with our hearts, following the one we claim to beleive in. If you don’t believe we can stop sinning, then you don’t believe what Jesus said. If we love Him, we WILL obey Him, maybe not perfectly, but we will clearly will not practice, in fact it is impossible to practice sin and be a real Christian. Those claiming this, our pretending obedience to Jesus

    If we stumble and if we fall, we are to get right back up and walk as Jesus walked. Yes we can be forgiven of future sin 1 John 1:8-9, but if we practice sin and believe we are saved, we are deceived. God sends delusion, already sent to those that love sin more than they love Him.

    I don’t know about you, but I am aiming for perfection. I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling by acting upon the grace of God that is working inside of me to guide me into righteousness. Phil 2:12-14. Babylon the fallen church, teaches this fase grace theology and teaches people they can walk, talk and act just like the world and be in the will of God. They are harlots, double minded Christians, called adulteresses and shall have no inheritence in the kingdom of God. They think they have already arrived and that Jesus is their husband, but they never died to their flesh, they are harlots in God’s eyes. They are widows even though they say they are not.

    2 Cor 13 – Awaken to righteousness and sin not.

    1 Cor 10:13 There is no temptation we cannot overcome.

    Phil 4:13 We can do all things thru Christ

    With God all things are possible, even the cessation of sinning.

    1 Peter 4 – Those who have suffered in the flesh, standing in the grace of God (power to overcome) have ceased from sin.

    God did not give us mission impossible. Our God who does not change has said the same thing since DAY ONE.

    Deut 30 – Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

  40. 40. Believer Says:

    Hi Rocky,

    I agree completely with you in that we are saved by grace through faith, and that (faith) not of ourselves, it is a gift of God lest any should boast. Absolutely true. That is how I was saved, and that is how I walk in salvation. I believe that God provides 100% of all righteousness to me – He imparted it to me – to live every second of each day.
    Can I ask, what is your definition of salvation? Or to put it another way, what is it to be a believer? Is there any difference between a believer and an unbeliever except for the fact that a believer goes to heaven and an unbeliever does not? What makes the life of a believer different each day from that of an unbeliever? I ask this because I wonder what God has shown you in your heart and would like to hear you share more of it.

    Pete – I like your summary! One thing about it though is that it makes my flesh (which has been put to death in Christ- that old sin nature!) want to resurrect and go and DO SOMETHING! 8-)
    What I might add to what you have said is this – Christ accomplished my salvation when He was crucified. He accomplished my sanctification when He was resurrected. He lives in me and I in Him. Because He has made me righteous, (to the degree that it exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees because it comes from the heart of loving not just the outward behavior as it was with the Pharisees), and has imparted that righteousness to me, I do not have to strive to obtain that which He has imparted to me. All I need to do is accept it. Sinlessness is effortless by definition. Once my effort enters in to the equation it is typically because I am acting in the flesh – which desperately wants to contribute so it can receive its share of accolades and applause. Poor old dead thing! There is another type of “effort” which cannot be considered effort at all – it is called fruit. The fruit on my peach tree simply abides and receives nourishment and growth from the branch upon which it lives. It does not strive to attain to peachlikeness. It has already been made into a peach and therefore simply abides. If the tree does not provide the nourishment the fruit will be withered and unfit to consume. So too Christ has imparted His perfect life to each of us as we abide in Him. To abide is not to do things, it is to let things be done through you. For me to try to contribute to His perfect work in me is to say I don’t think He really did 100% of everything required to make me righteous. That is called unbelief. When I experience and live in unbelief, it causes me to sin because anything done without faith is sin.
    Now, I do not know your heart Pete, but I like a lot of what you say. But just so you understand, when my thoughts look at sanctification – walking in Christlikeness – as a prize to be achieved or something to be attained, it tempts me to want to devise a way to attain this goal. Once I go there in my heart, I am already expressing that I don’t believe that my righteousness comes from Christ alone and that He already accomplished it. But when I think – wow! Jesus did not fail on the cross, His sacrifice was perfect and complete, lacking nothing, and He imparted His righteousness to me – me – who was an alcoholic and drug user and porno addict and hateful vengeful wicked person – oh how I thank God and adore Him for His perfect gift and accept the truth of it. I cannot pray – Lord make me righteous – He did it the second I was saved. My life changed completely and He imparted His perfection, His life to me. There is no more to be DONE, but there is an infinite amount more to be RECEIVED if only I will accept it. I believe the scriptures are true – I am seated with Him in the heavenly places – as He is so am I in this world. What He ways about me is true – I am not too prideful to discard it because I am tempted to unbelief in what He ways. I AM a new creation – the old has passed away – ALL has become new. He didn’t miss any area of sin in my life – he transformed all at the very heart level. It’s not just that I don’t look at porno any more, its that I have no desire for any woman other than my wife – all women are sisters or mothers to me in my heart and I love them accordingly. There is no place for lust when I see women.
    Jesus succeeded at the cross, He did not fail. He is so awesome and wonderful – oh how I love Him! My life is His to do as He pleases. It is by His grace that I walk in Him – there is no other way. Of myself I can do nothing – I contribute NOTHING to the equation of godliness and holiness. He makes me Holy – He set me apart – even as the ground upon which Moses trod was made Holy by God – so too this vessel made of dirt has been made Holy by Him.

    Blessed be our glorious Father and His wonderful Son who imparted to us the free gift of salvation and righteousness and love and peace and joy. Oh do please accept the free gift of God’s perfect love everyone and let it be all that He has made it to be. Don’t just accept one small part of the gift and deny the rest – receive fully of Him even as He gave fully to you – and let it overflow to others that they too make experience and partake of His perfect love.

    Be blessed – in His love

  41. 41. Tim Thompson Says:

    As time goes by I have noticed so many people are coming up with their own thoughts and opinens on what scripture really means it is really scarry at times.A very dear frind of mine is a professor up at O.R.U,and one thing that amazes me is how many pastors are speaking behind the pulpit that have no solid doctrine training and how many pastors have no degree at all but yet they are building a church based on their own opinens but if the pastor has a wounded spirit he will come up with his own doctrine out of pain compared to some one that is healthy.I have met so many that believe in things that are openly discussed as sin in the word but people have said but to day things are differnt.I find it so sad how many christians are compromising every thing now.

  42. 42. Tammy Bean Says:

    Oh my. This brings back so many memories of my childhood and early adulthood. You see I was raised in a Methodist church that taught very legalistic precepts. My parents made sure that they never bought anything on a Sunday, never shopped at a store that sold alcohol, didn’t do this and didn’t do that. I picked up very early in my life that if I committed just one little sin, I would be eternally lost forever. I was saved as a child and believe me, to make sure I stayed saved I was at that altar all the time.

    As a young adult, I became tormented over certain sins that I gave into. I would go along for a while completely free, then feel such temptation that I would give in. Condemnation would set in and I would feel such guilt that I would literally turn away from God thinking that I had blown it. How could I come back and ask forgiveness again for the same thing? Why would he pardon me since I did it willfully? This became such a downward spiral that I literally lived in despair.

    My husband and I then attended a Nazarene holiness church and for the first time I heard about entire sanctification. I obviously needed that, for everyone told me that when they became sanctified holy they no longer sinned. So I began to pray that the Lord would grant me this by the Holy Spirit. I would go to the altar and beg that the Lord would sanctify me. I would cry, beg, and tarry. I would go home and read my Bible and pray. I would go for a week or two and then the old temptations would come back. I would beg the Lord to help me and keep me strong. But after a while I could not withstand the temptation and would fall back into sin.

    This went on for quite some time until I was in such anguish that I began to wish I had never heard the Gospel. I remember telling my husband that people who had no idea of salvation were more joyful and free than I was. I would read Jesus’ words about His yoke being easy and His burden light. That He who the Son set free would be free indeed. I was not free. I was bound by something that had me and even though I begged for the Lord to help me stand against it and take it away, He didn’t. I begged Him to sanctify me. And He didn’t. I came to the conclusion then, that I could never be saved.

    One day my husband and I went to a camp meeting. The pastor stood up and preached that if anyone was having problems with sin in their life, they needed to be sanctified holy and if they believed by faith the Lord would remove that sinful nature. I was in such turmoil after that I became nauseated. I had asked, I had begged, I had believed.

    The next morning after my husband and son left for work and school, I stood in my kitchen and fervently prayed this prayer: Lord, your word tells me that you will set me free and that your burden is light. I have begged you to sanctify me holy and you will not. I am still struggling with my sin. You say that if I sin, then I lose my salvation and will be sent to hell. But I have asked you to deliver me from this sin that has me bound and you will not. Lord either show me your truth, or send me to hell because I cannot live the life you command.

    After that as I read His word I began to see verses in a whole different light. Interestingly enough, the pastor’s wife at our church had begun a study on the book of Romans. I was a part of that study when I had prayed in my kitchen. As I worked through the workbook and read the verses that Paul wrote, I was totally set free. I would get so moved and so excited as I read that I would stop and lift my hands to the Lord and simply praise Him. I learned that I had been condemning myself when God’s word said that there was no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I thought that I lost my salvation with every sin, but Ephesians told me that I had been given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of future inheritance. I thought I was a sinner but Paul called me a saint in 1 Corinthians. I thought I had to be responsible for my salvation but Philippians told me that He who began a good work would be faithful to complete it. And Titus showed me that it is grace that teaches me to say no to sin.

    The clincher for me was found in Hebrews. The Israelites had to go back year after year to sacrifice animals for their sins. Animals were imperfect in that they did not remove the sin. But Christ’s sacrifice was once and for all. To say that one sin takes away my salvation so that I have to be saved again and again, which Hebrews 6 says is impossible anyway, then I am equating Christ’s perfect gift with imperfect animal sacrifices which is an affront to His perfect atonement. God’s salvation is a free gift, given by grace. Any string attached means that salvation is not free.

    I am no theologian, but praise God, He set me free!!! I wanted to shout from the highest mountain that God is true to His Word and indeed His yoke is easy and His burden light. After my deliverance from conditional salvation l was baptized. I would never be baptized before since I felt that I was never truly saved. I learned that if I did commit that sin that had me bound, I freely ran to the Lord because I John states that He is faithful and just to forgive me of sin and cleanse me of unrighteousness. And that same book also tells me that if I claim to be without sin that I am a liar and the truth is not in me. I have fallen in love with my Savior and I do not commit that sin that had me bound. No, He set me free from it. For you see it is grace that teaches me to say no. I had been living under law, not grace.

    I share this because I would never want someone else to go through what I went through. Christ gave His life to set us free, not bind us again to the law. I would never want to go back to that mindset for it was most damaging to me spiritually and literally almost destroyed me.

  43. 43. bob Says:

    Hi Tammy,

    Thanks for you testimony. I am glad that you found deliverance from the sin that had you bound.

    Seems different systems work for different people. As long as you find power over sinning and you are not living in a lifestyle of sinning that I will praise the Lord with you and for what he has done for you!

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  44. 44. bob Says:

    Hi Rocky,

    Bob Mutch runs this site and his background is a crack-head off the street. He got converted in jail and when through the PAOC, CMA, and then got involved with COG Guthie, and then COG Restoration. He currently is attending a Charity congregation in the Vienna Ontario area.

    There is more info about Bob on his about page.
    http://morechristlike.com/about/

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

  45. 45. Mike Helms Says:

    Tammy,

    Your transparency is a breath of fresh air! I hope all who visit this thread have the opportunity to read it. “Sinless perfection” is a lying man-made doctrine and leads to the turmoil you voiced so well. The only one who is sinlessly perfect is Jesus Christ- AND HE PAID ALL THE PRICE FOR US when He shed His blood. Praise God!

    “He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that IN HIM we might become the righteousness of God.” ( 2 Corinthains 5:21)

    Jesus is our righteousness- our ONLY righteousness. Thank God for his indescribable gift!

  46. 46. bob Says:

    Hi Mike,

    I have heard may testimonies like Tammy’s. I still hold to Christian Perfection (what some people call Sinless Perfection) and don’t base my doctrine on peoples experience.

    Bob.

  47. 47. Pete Says:

    I praise God that I don’t have to execute to perfection. He is my righteousness; the righteousness of my flesh efforts is filthy rags. Yet if the Lord does not have our whole heart, we are none of His and are simply deceived. We don’t have to be perfect, but it must be our aim. If it is not then Jesus is not really Lord. In such case, something else is Lord and God cannot control us if we are not led by His Spirit. If we claim to know Him and practice sin, we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

    I fear for those that harbor sin in their heart, are not convicted by it and are full of a false peace. God calls that a deluding influence that He Himself sends (2 thess 2) to all who take pleasure in sin yet claim to be saved by grace. Thankfully, we will all be judged by the intentions of our heart, not our perfect execution of holiness. If we stumble we get back up and respond to the loss of peace we have. We go to the throne of mercy and grace in our time of need. But those that think faith is saying words with our lips, going to church and doing good deeds, do not know the God I know. The true WORKS SALVATION is any other way of getting to heaven without being led by the Holy Spirit. False religion teaches works. If we are led by the HS, we will not practice sin, PERIOD. If we are not led by the HS, we are none of His.

    God is a consuming fire and His wrath is coming to all that are not walking in covenant, surrendered to Him. That is true faith; it is giving up one’s life and trusting in the Lord. That is how a blood covenant is made. He died and then we die to self. There is no other way, the multitudes are deceived.

    So no, I am not yet perfect, I have not yet arrived, but I press on and strive to stay on this very narrow road as God burns up all impurities and sin from my heart. Love not any sin. When everyone is saying peace and safety, suddenly destruction will come and their faces will melt in astonishment. Did God really say if you eat off the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will surely die? Yes He did. Do not fall victim to the most basic doctrine of demons that says “did God really say this”. He has never changed and Christ did not come to die on a cross so we could continue to serve our flesh and profess the name of God at the same time. This is an insult to the Spirit of Grace.

    We either overcome the bondage of sin and the lusts of this world or we will perish. Jesus has done it all, we must choose to get in on what Jesus has done or continue to walk in rebellion, loving our sin more than we love God. Do not be deceived my little children, He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous. We are not judged by the perfect obedience of Jesus — that is a lie of the powers of darkness that are running the Babylon churches of these end times. The fear of the Lord is before my eyes and I advise all of us to be working out our salvation with fear and trembling. He is a jealous God and a consuming fire and is coming SOON with fire to all that do not know Him AND all that do not obey His gospel. May the grace of God be poured on all who seek truth may be set free from the power (not just the penalty) of sin in their lives.

    All of this focus on controversial questions leads us into doctrines that do not conform us to godliness. Jesus is the author of salvation to all that obey Him. Where is your heart person? Do you really hate your sin? We all should examine ourselves and ask God to show us what is in our heart. He is coming only to a pure and spotless Bride that has come thru His refining process. But as the prophet of old spoke, the refining goes in vain.

  48. 48. bobmutch Says:

    Hi Brad,

    I don’t use the term sinless perfection as we all have unwillful sins in our life. While I agree with the doctrine of Christian Perfection (it would be better called Christian Completeness), I don’t use the term Christian Perfection but I use a Bibical term “free from sin”.

    This term which is found in Romans chapter six and teaches freedom from willful sinning.

    >>>Sinless perfection is not a personal accomplishment, its a result of god’s quickening in your life. Shame you.guys are so ME focused you think its about you.

    No one has inferred that victory over sin is a personal accomplishment so there is no need to try to impute shame on us.

    I hold that we find grace to help in time of temptation at the throne of grace (Heb 4:16).

    >>>Author dude in here you are one.Arrogant smug intellectual liar and misrepresenter of.God’s word for personal gain.

    The Lord bless you. Is that how you deal with every one that disagrees you with?

    Bob.

  49. 49. Mike Helms Says:

    Wow Brad, I don’t know where your anger is coming from. All I did was thank Tammy for her testimony and say that Jesus was our only righteousness. I called “sinless perfection” a lying man-made doctrine because it is. I have yet to meet anyone who has walked this earth who is sinless and perfect other than Jesus Christ. The scripture tells us that Christ is our righteousness- PERIOD.

    I have no intention of entering into a debate with you. As for me, I know I’m not sinlessly perfect. God’s Word tells me that if I claim to be without sin I’m deceiving myself. (1 John 1:8) I know what I am, and I know who He is- He alone is sinless, and He alone is my righteousness. I understand that as a Christian I am to “walk as Jesus walked” (1 John 1:6) – that does not mean I am “perfect”. I understand what John was saying when he said, “I write this to you so that you may not sin…” (1 John 2:1) I also understand what he was saying when he said, “BUT IF ANYONE DOES SIN we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins…” (1John 2:1-2)

    I’m admitting that I am not perfect, and that I need to confess my sins to Jesus, and that I look to Him alone as my righteous, and claim to have none of my own. I fail to see how this is being “smug”.

    Mike

  50. 50. bob Says:

    @Brad

    >>>Bob, you are fine. It was the Mike Helms guy.

    Brad it is carnal to charge anyone with being a smug liar and a misrepresenter of God’s word for personal gain just because they don’t see the scriptures like you do. Go and read Mat 5-7 and 1Cor 13 please.

    @Mike

    No one that believes in Christian Perfection, “free from sin”, or as some people call it “Sinless Perfect” believes they are perfect in the sense that they are with out sins of ignorance, error or faults, or get every thing down just right.

    How ever the Wesleyans do teach that you can be free from willful sinning through the grace and power of God.

    >>>I called “sinless perfection” a lying man-made doctrine because it is.

    I see no reason to state that a teaching that holds you can be free from willful sinning is a lying doctrine.

    1Joh 1:8 is held by some to be referring to those who are not in Christ but claim to be free from committing sins.

    Christian love and prayers,

    Bob.

    >>>Arrogant smug intellectual liar and misrepresenter of. God’s word for personal gain.

    I really don’t care who you call that. It is carnal to charge anyone with being a smug liar and a misrepresenter of God’s word for personal gain.

  51. 51. Mike Helms Says:

    Hi Bob,

    I agree that when we are born again we are no longer slaves to sin; we literally become a New Creation and sin is longer our master as it once was. That is an undeniable truth. But scripture also recognizes the battle we’re in, and that is why we have verses such as “But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” (1 John 2:1) The verse is there not to promote sin, but to deal with the reality of our struggles, and to bring comfort and hope to the one who falls into sin. We are not cast aside by God- we have an advocate; and the case He makes in our defense is not that we have not sinned, but rather, that He has paid the price for us and dealt with our sins in His atoning sacrifice. We need the assurance that Christ will not just walk away from us if we have sinned. God tells us He won’t, and as Tammy pointed out, we are to come to God confessing our sin, having received His promise that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

    To not have that assure of God’s love and forgiveness is to live in torment every time we sin in any way. Tammy expressed what that torment is like. I thanked her for sharing her testimony not because I build my belief on someones experience- but because her experience illustrated so well what God’s Word teaches about this subject. Her freedom came in seeing that Christ is enough! The price He paid was enough to deal with her sin. Christ was not going to walk away from her everytime she struggled or fell in some way.

    At the beginning of this thread you wrote about the “free from sin teaching”. Your last point (#9) was:

    “If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).”

    This is not what scripture teaches! We do not instantly lose eternal life and become a child of the devil when we sin. Scripture teaches we have an advocate in Jesus, and we are run to Him, having complete trust that He is on our side and paid the price for our sins. He does not just kick us out of the family and strip us of eternal life; He does not consign us to being a child of the devil because we have sinned- instead, He forgives and restores.

    You may try to make distinctions between willful sin and sins of ignorance- but scripture does not make that distinction here: “But if anyone does SIN…” That is what the Word of God says. Whatever our sin may be we are to run to God with full assurance that Jesus is our advocate, and is for us, and will forgive. Letting a believer think they lose eternal life and become a child of the devil every time they sin is the worst sort of lie, and to the person who believes such things- the worst sort of torment. It is NOT the truth of God’s Word.

    Mike

  52. 52. Anne Stocks Says:

    Thank you Bob for giving others including myself the opportunity to express our convictions in regards to Sinless Perfection, but it does amaze me is that some are opposed to the Phrase as though it is something evil and not to be considered as God’s Truth. I was wondering if there was any value in adding to this debate by offering my heart convictions, but considered it more worthwhile for me at least and perhaps others if I was to ask your readers, ( that is only if you are in agreement Bob ) if they would mind answering a few questions for me instead, I would be very appreciative of their answers even if they are opposed to Sinless Perfection, the only thing I ask is they would please read the Scriptures I offer and if still not in agreement, offer their own, and not to just give their understanding without the Scripture to support what they are claiming. I will be using the K.J.V for clarification, but any accepted Translation is ok as long as they please advise what Translation they are using, it saves me checking them all to find their Scripture referance.

    Questions

    1. If God asks us to be perfect as He is, do you think it’s impossible and if so does this mean that what He asks of us is not really attainable ? Matthew 5:48

    2. If it is our Sin Nature that causes us to sin by polluting our spirit and we put it to death by the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:13 does this mean we can no longer sin as the Scriptures tell us in ? 1 John 3:9

    3. If we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, should we continue saying that we can and do sin when we are in Christ Jesus ? Romans 6:11

    4. If God tells us when we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us and purify us from all unrighteousness does this mean ?, we are going to still have the evil flesh Nature that causes us to sin and do things that are unrighteous? 1 John 1:19 & 1 John 3: 7

    5. When we are Born again the Scriptures tell us we have the mind of Christ, if this is True, does Jesus choose to sin and if not then will we choose to sin if we have His mind as He lives in us ? 1 Corinthians 2:16

    6. By God’s foreknowledge of our hearts repentance He chooses us to be conformed into the image of His Son so that we will be like Him when He appears, does this mean if we are in His image we will still be continuing to sin ? or will we walk like He did and does in righteousness which means we shall we be pure ? Romans 8:28-30 & 1 John 3:2-3 & Daniel 12:10

    7. If we ask for God’s wisdom as He asks us to do, because in the flesh we all lack His wisdom and Proverbs tells us to seek after it ,do we then doubt that we or others have received it and if we do have doubts, are we saying that God does not do what He says and so we are calling Him a liar ? James 1:4-6

    8. Although we are seen by God as perfected from the time we come to heart repentance and so are under His grace meaning that we can be forgiven if needed while we are putting the flesh Nature to death by the Spirit 1 John 2, do we show that we are saved by walking according to His guidelines or our own, as the Scriptures explain in Romans 8 … or as some say … We do not sin so we will be saved… but because we are saved we do not sin

    9. Why does Paul in Romans 7 when he is referring to his flesh Nature which at this time he has not put to death by the Spirit or had he been resurrected in Christ Jesus, claim to be a wretched man but then tells us in Romans 8 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God and later Peter confirms in 1 Peter 2 that in Christ Jesus we are a Royal Priesthood etc can we really remain wretched or worms or perhaps crumbs on the floor if we are really Sons and Daughters of God ?

    10. Why is it that those in the world claim they are not Sinners and so do not need Salvation which is calling God a liar 1 John 7:8 yet some Christians who the Scriptures tell us if they are Born again of God’s seed meaning the old flesh Nature of Adam is gone and they now have the New Spiritual Nature of God 1 John 3:9 and they also have been set free from the bondage of sin and so are no longer slaves to it but slaves to righteousness Romans 6 still say that they will continue to sin till they die, but can give no Scripture reference to support this.

    I could continue but perhaps for now this is enough Questions – Thank you for your time Anne Stocks

  53. 53. Believer Says:

    I love you all! It is a blessing to people seeking the truth. Consider this please…

    Do you believe that the sin entered the world through the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you believe that the sin of Adam brought him separation from God? Do you think that the sin of Adam was then passed on to every human being thereafter? Do you think that all people since the fall of Adam have had Adam’s sin nature imparted to them at birth? Do you think that anyone besides Christ has been born without the sin nature of Adam? How can it be that the sin of a man committed thousands of years ago made it so that you and I had no choice but to be born into sin? Do you know that every sin we commit is the result of our sin nature and that our sin nature is not the result of our having first sinned? No baby is born sinless and then upon their first act of sin is made a sinner. All are made sinners by the sin committed by Adam. Do you believe that the sin of a man committed thousands of years ago caused you to be born as a sinner by nature, even if you had not yet committed one single sin? Do you believe that dying with a sin nature means that you are condemned to everlasting separation from God?
    If these things are all true (and they are according to the Bible), then it is impossible for a Christian to have a sin nature and go to heaven instead of to hell. The Bible teaches us that the sin nature of every believer was crucified with Christ on the cross Romans 6:6). It had to be, because we could not serve two masters, the master of our sin nature in Adam, and God, our true master. Or as Paul put it in Romans 7, a wife cannot be married to two husbands without being a harlot. It is impossible that God, in bringing us salvation, would demand that we become harlots. To accomplish our complete salvation and free us from the bondage of our old master sin and the law, God, through the crucifixion of Christ, killed our sin nature into which we were born and brought us into marriage with Him. The death of our sin nature (flesh – sarx in the Greek, not the physical body) is a necessary requirement for being brought into union with God.
    In the same way that we were born into the sin nature of Adam by natural birth, we were killed to the sin nature of Adam and born again into the resurrected life of Christ at our salvation. John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit. He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
    It is impossible to be born again without first being made dead to the sin nature of Adam, the nature of the self life. Adam’s sin was that of selfishness. He was tempted to be like God when God had already made him to be like Him – Adam was made in the image of God. He was sold something he already possessed because he believed the lie that it was not already his. So too, many Christians remain “sinners” and live lives of sin because they buy the lie that the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus did not accomplish all that God says that it accomplished. They listen to the lie that the only difference between them and any other sinner is that they get to go to heaven after their bodies die. But heaven is not obtained by physical death, but by spiritual death to Adam and resurrection into the holy life of Christ. The children of Israel failed to enter the Promised Land already given to them by God because of unbelief. The book of Hebrews explains how Christians, through unbelief, never enter the Promised Land that God has already given them upon salvation.
    As He is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17c.
    Do you believe it? Do you believe everything the New Testament says about the fact that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has passed away, all has become new? This is the definition of being “in Christ” in the Bible. The sin nature has passed away, you have received a new nature. It is instantaneous upon salvation. It is not a long painful gradual process by which we, working together with God, obtain slow gradual incremental changes to our old sinful nature to make it conform more and more to a holy godly nature. The flesh profits nothing. The truth is that the sin nature was crucified and destroyed at the moment you received Christ and you were made new. If that is not the case, you are not in Christ. If anyone is not in Christ, they are not His. If your sin nature was not crucified and you were not made new in Christ, you are not saved.
    In the same way that we were born into Adam, who lived and died thousands of years ago, we were born again into Christ who lived and died thousands of years ago and who lives again at the right hand of the Father. We are no longer of the lineage or family of Adam. We have been killed from that family and reborn into a new family, the family of God.
    So you ask, how then is it possible to be saved and still sin? Why would I need an advocate in Christ if it is impossible for me to sin as a Christian? Adam was created with no sin, and was given everything he needed for all life and godliness by his continual dependence upon God. When Adam decided to disbelieve that he was already as perfect as a human being can be made, that he was already made in the image of God, that he was already as much like God as could be possible, his unbelief brought him to sin. So too, a Christian through unbelief can sin. By believing that the sacrifice of Christ was not perfect and complete, that it was not everything required to restore perfect harmony and unity with God, to not believe that God crucified one’s sin nature on the cross and it no longer has any hold on them, to disbelieve the fact of the salvation wrought by grace through faith in Christ, a believer may sin.
    Someone who claims to be a believer and sins daily however may wish to consider that because sin is a result of unbelief, even as it was originally with Adam who was made perfect, then the fact that they are in unbelief every day makes them an unbeliever, not a believer. A believer doesn’t live a life in continual unbelief. That’s why we can say with certainty that it is true of a believer that As He is, so are we in this world. A believer will be as loving, holy, sinless, honest, and dependent upon God as Christ right now as he lives in this world. We may also say that if, because of unbelief, a believer should fall from grace and commit sin, he has an advocate (parakletos) with Christ. But a believer will not be characterized by unbelief. He cannot live in sin and be saved. He cannot and will not sin daily. To sin daily is to daily live in unbelief. It is, by definition, to be an unbeliever. Those who insist that sin is a necessary part of living in a physical body are gnostics. Gnostics believed that because sin is inherent in our living bodies, it is impossible to live a life free of sinning. Thus, according to the Gnostics, Christ could not have lived on this earth in a physical body. John calls the heresy of gnosticism “antichrist.” Anyone who believes that it is impossible to live a sinless life because sin is inherent in the physical body is by scriptural definition antichrist. Even when John wrote his epistles, he says there were many antichrists already. There are many more today.
    Where do you stand? If you have ever been saved by God, you know the experience of being made perfect and holy and righteous and sinless, even if only for a brief time. That is what God imparts to every believer upon salvation. Sanctification is merely the ongoing life being unfolded from glory to glory…not garbage to glory as many wrongly teach. During the time you believed you accepted the truth of what God accomplished at the cross, otherwise you never actually believed. Like those who say that they believe that Christ really was a man born around 2000 years ago and was crucified on a cross but believe in Him in no other way than by the fact of his historical existence and thus are not saved, so too you cannot say you believe in Christ having never accepted the truth of His crucified death and resurrected life being imparted to you. If you never believe what Christ did to the point of being transformed into a new creation, you have never really accepted Christ.
    If you were born again, received the crucified death of your sin nature and the resurrected life of Christ, tasted of the holiness of God, and have had the truth stolen from you by the many antichrists who insist that what you experienced was just an emotional or imaginary experience, a “Honeymoon period”, and that walking continually in the spirit is impossible because you have to constantly fight the sin nature (that is in fact exhumed only through unbelief), then I want to encourage you in the hope that is in Christ Jesus. Believe in Him, not in all the lies taught by the antichrists. In Him you walk and breathe and have your very being. Like Adam, you were reborn perfectly.
    Only unbelief can resurrect in your mind the sinful Adamic nature that God crucified and asks you to reckon as dead. Self focus on how to serve God, how to be holy, and how to stop from sinning by your own efforts will bring you into the carnal Christian experience Paul illustrates so powerfully in Romans chapter 7. Paul says he sees in his members another law that brings him into captivity of sin. Like a child who sees a monster in their closet, we can see the power of the crucified sin nature and animate it by our unbelief in the fact that it is dead. But only by looking to Christ and Him crucified can we break free of the bondage imposed by self focused unbelief and experience the truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Let go of the lies that you can do anything to make yourself holy, even as Adam tried to make himself more like God. Accept that God has made you holy, that you are no longer a slave to sin, that sin has no reign over you because your sin nature was crucified with Christ and should be reckoned so.
    Jesus did not go to the cross to bring the future hope of heaven and Godliness to people while letting them remain living in frustrated lives of sin that they could only attempt by their own pathetic efforts to try to overcome in order to fulfill His command to “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus was not teasing us by deceiving us and tempting us to try to live an unlivable life. Do not believe the many sinners and carnal Christians who teach lies from the pulpit that we will remain slaves to sin as long as we have physical bodies. They are antichrist. It is possible to live a life completely and perfectly in Him by the power of God and the free gift of salvation. Allow yourself to believe what you first believed before you were tainted by the lies Satan uses so powerfully to rape the bride of Christ before the wedding. Satan cannot marry the bride, she belongs to another. But he can rape the bride through causing her to remain a harlot with him, living in the domain of sin, while she awaits the final wedding day. If you continue to live in sin while being a Christian, know you are a harlot of Satan. Oh dear loved of God, let go of the lie that you are still a slave to your sin nature!
    Victory over sin comes not from anything we do or could ever do. It comes to us through the imparted crucifixion and resurrected new life of Christ. It is a fact lived in our lives. These are not just imaginary theoretical things. This is the complete truth to be lived in our lives daily. Our hope is in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Let go of the lies and trust in Him. Jesus was the manifestation of God, a man of perfect Agape love. He did not sin, but loved, when He rebuked the Pharisees. So too would we be sinning if we did what was comfortable to our old sinful nature and kept quiet when we saw an opportunity to love others by speaking through the Holy Spirit the words of truth. Thus Jesus, Paul, John and other writers of the New Testament authored by God sincerely loved when they rebuked the Galatians, the Corinthians, the Pharisees and the antichrists. That is true love, not hiding quietly and accepting the social or ethical norm of the moment as if it were truth. Do you love others enough to rebuke them and to die for them if need be?
    Dear Christian who has truly experienced salvation, remember the joy and peace and completeness that you experienced in Christ and remember the truth. Jesus made you perfectly acceptable and favored by God and brought you into His kingdom of light. This has not changed. You did not get thrown out and cast back into the kingdom of darkness.
    Let His life be lived in you and through you again even as you did at that first moment of salvation.

  54. 54. Anne Stocks Says:

    Dear Believer, Thank you for your post there is much Truth in it and yes as part of the Body of Christ I also Love you in The Lord.

    I’m not sure if you are a man or a woman but I always seek to share under the authority of The Lord not my own, I’m not a Ordained Preacher because the Scriptures tell us as woman we are not to Teach to have Authority over men which in this position we would need to do. This is the same as being an Elder or Leader in the Church because we may be deceived and God is trying to protect us from having to be accountable for error in teaching. Our God given role as Helpmates, Mentally, Physically, Emotionally and Spiritually to Men in their Leadership role both in Marriage and in the Church is indeed a very high calling and one we can be very grateful for but as women the same as men we are all called to share God’s Truth, correct error and warn and rebuke those who are sinning in the Church but it must come from Love and a humble heart remembering that without God’s grace we also would be punished eternally and until we are perfected in Love with caution or we may also be lead into sin.

    I don’t think I will be able to respond to all you have shared Believer in one post but I will seek to address a few issues that you have raised and post again later.

    First I do not think it is our place to say every Preacher or Teacher who says we will sin till we die but are forgiven is an Antichrist or a false Teacher, I believe they are deceived or are unaware of the full Gospel which also includes some of what you shared, because if a person is a Child of God known by His foreknowledge of their hearts repentance God will bring them to an understanding of His Truth the same as He does with all His Children. We must be very carful not to judge anyone for eternal damnation only God knows their Destiny they may come to heart repentance on their deathbed, yes it will have been a wasted life and they will have no rewards but they will escape through the flames.

    I agree with you once we have come to heart repentance we are under God’s grace and our righteousness is in Christ Jesus but as Paul tells us we must work out our Salvation and aim to win the Crown of righteousness. We are to be perfected in Love as God asks us to do. Mathew 5:48 and when we are perfected in Love and have the mind of Christ our words and actions will show it not just some of the time but all of the time 1 John 3:1-11

    This does not mean that we are working for our Salvation, this is a free gift but we are told to put the deeds of the evil flesh nature to death by the Spirit and this is something we must choose to do and as you said we are to also reason ourselves dead to sin believing it has no power over us and in Christ Jesus it doesn’t we have been set free and are no longer in bondage to sin or are we it’s slaves Romans 8:13.

    God tells us that He conforms us into the likeness of His Son and cleanses us from all unrighteous so what you have said is True when we are Born again of God’s seed we no longer sin but the Truth is we cannot sin. 1 John 3:9 ( Cannot in the Strong’s Greek means… Absolutely Never.) But before we are Born again we can sin but we have an advocate and when we repent we are forgiven.

    Many mistakenly believe that sin includes weaknesses and shortcomings as well as doubts or fears and even negative thoughts, yes they all can lead to sin but if not acted on and rejected the same as ungodly anger, then they are not sin.

    I will leave it there for now Believer but will respond again soon – Christian Love Anne

  55. 55. Anne Stocks Says:

    Correction Brad.

    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    (( ye= us or we or me or you ))

    Colossians 3:4-6 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    No need to respond, I only.commented for balance – Kind regards Anne.

  56. 56. brad dickey Says:

    Oh bob, you are so right. I am so evil.

    If you have friend with emphysema lighting up a smoke, you are in the flesh to explain to him about his its bad for him, and to offer a way.for him to get help is terriblely rude and fleshly.

    When Peter was chastised by Paul, his feelings were hurt and Paul has been burning in hell ever sense.

    Paul also said he wished a group of peeps would cut their, ummm, privates off, they were so evil, he has no chance of ever being in the kingdom, does he?

    Yij are right Bob, trying to help someone the best u can in a text only medium, is a sin against god directly, and it breaks the commandment, thou shalt never say anything beneficial if it hurts sumones widdle feelers.

    Bob, I would say the bigger sin, would be enablement. I think for the benefit of all, you should not post enabling comments on your blog.

    Borderline personality disorder. Look it up and see of I wasn’t sincerely helping, err trying to help, or not. Education is cheap.

    And Bob, continue to promos anne’s backhanded passive aggressive comments, we all know that is how.a.good little Xi’an behaves.

    If you don’t want me to post, omit me, change so I.see no comments, the power is in your hands. Of you do that enough, everyone you know in the world will agree with yij. And Anne and yij both would be in yiur comfort zone.

    And lastly, Bob, he vss I opened up with, if you condemn me, you condemn those as well. I wanted you to see why your comment was so utterly naieve, shortsided, and a subtle slanderous slur towards me. That is why I find the facade presented here so offensive. Now fix things and be sure to follow through with me and the apostle paul as being horrible fleshly people.

    Now delete me milk lover.

  57. 57. bob Says:

    Hi Brad,

    I would suggest you contact me via email if you want to discuss the email I sent you.

    Thanks!

    Bob.

  58. 58. Believer Says:

    Hi Anne,

    May you be blessed in the Lord. Thank you for taking the time to read my comments. I appreciate hearing from you and I value your opinions. Just so you know, I am a man. Thank you for preceding your comments with your views on the role of women with respect to teaching men.
    To address some of your comments: you believe that we should not judge those who teach that sin is an inherent part of having a physical body as being antichrist. I am not the originator of this teaching, it is what the Bible teaches. I simply meant to point out that this is what the Bible says to be true, and have elaborated on why the Bible is correct. We are not to judge based on appearance but to judge with righteous judgment (John 7:24). Please note, this is Jesus saying that we are to judge, but to judge through His judgment, not based on our own perceptions. I believe that is what I was doing. I was not attempting to personally determine the eternal destiny of those who are defined by the scriptures as antichrist, that is certainly up to Jesus. He has made that determination and it is stated in the scriptures. When John declares in 1 John 4:3 that “every” spirit who does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God, and is antichrist, he is establishing a fact not an opinion.
    We tend to have a Hollywood notion of good and evil, bad guys and good guys. We believe that someone who is evil or bad is intentionally evil, but those who lead others to death by accident and by fault of being deceived themselves should not be classified as “bad guys”, just misguided. But that is how Hollywood wants us to think, not reality. Bad guys always seem to sit around making wicked plans on how to destroy good guys and often turn out to be simply misunderstood hurting people in the end who never really were “bad guys” at all. They should not, according to the Hollywood mentality be held accountable for their wicked deeds. Therefore, by this notion, Adam and Eve who were deceived and brought sin into the world were just misunderstood and should not be judged. But the fact is that what they did affected billions of people and God has judged them for that. If the scriptures specifically told of God’s judgment about Adam and Eve and I quoted it as fact, would someone have a reason to say I was taking God’s role of judging simply because I pointed out what the scriptures revealed and that I should not judge Adam and Eve according to the scriptures?
    I do understand fully that there are many people who teach and preach who are deceived and are leading many untold numbers of others to death through their misguided teaching. Paul and John both address deceivers who teach untruths about God. I grieve deeply that such people will stand before the Bema seat and see the effect of everything they did and watch anything not originating in Jesus as their foundation be burned away, and they too as if by fire. Some of them will, we may pray, come to see their errors before that day and begin to teach the truth. It is not a heart of condemnation that gives me the desire to speak of the consequences of those who teach the deception of gnosticism, it is genuine Godly love.
    Oh Anne, please pray with me now for those souls who have been deceived and think that sin is a manifestation of physical existence, who teach that sin is a necessary part of being a Christian. I cry for them, through the Holy Spirit by God’s love in my heart.
    You quote that Paul states we are to “work out our salvation” without finishing the rest of the sentence “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13. I am wary of those who quote the first part of this thought without keeping intact the second part for I have found that it often reveals a heart of works based righteousness at a very deep and hidden level. Not always, but often. I am glad that you follow up by recognizing that this is not something we are to do but rather something Christ does in us. Very good. And yes, we must accept it and receive it even as we did our initial salvation for it to be made of any affect upon us personally. Jesus died to save all mankind, but only those who accept His sacrifice through believing in Him will be saved. Jesus crucified with Him my old Adamic nature (Romans 6:6 and 6:11 among others) and unless I accept that as truth, it has no affect on how I live nor does my unbelief bring His resurrected life to work in me.
    You say Anne that many mistakenly believe that sin includes …. negative thoughts. Do you define lust or murderous anger as a negative thought, or as a sin. I just want to point out that Jesus defined “sinful thoughts” as being equal to the act of carrying out those sins, and so one could possibly think you might be saying that you disagree with Jesus if you do not more clearly define “negative thoughts”. Obviously, lust or murderous anger are negative thoughts and according to Jesus are sin. It is unlikely that you meant to disagree with Jesus, so please do define for us more accurately what you mean by negative thoughts. 8-)
    Thank you Anne for your comments and for your gentle heart. I hope that my words have not come across unlovingly in any way when I point to what the scriptures say about deceivers who lead others to death. I suspect that all deceivers who are human are either deceived themselves and teach what they honestly think to be the truth, or are as Jesus titled certain Pharisees, sons of Satan. But either way those who deceive others, for whatever reason, are still deceivers. I simply wish to point out what God says about those who deceive with respect to a particular view of the antichrist spirit.
    Anne, are you of a particular denomination or church? My heart is not to criticize or use such information in any wrongful way, but to help me to understand what you believe more fully. I can understand if you say you are simply of the body of Christ and not any certain religious denomination.
    May you be blessed as you walk in the Spirit and be encouraged moment by moment that Jesus is your life and your empowerment to be all that He died to allow you to be. May you receive the fullness of His wonderful love.

  59. 59. Anne Stocks Says:

    Hi Believer, I’m sorry it has taken so long for me to respond to your post but I didn’t receive notification that you had posted, I was having a lot of Problems with my Computer so that may explain it but now I have a new one.

    Yes as you shared we do need to judge and rebuke those who are continuing to walk in sin in the Church and yes as you said not by our own agenda but by God’s Truth and in Love and I do this but of course I’m abused and told I’m either judgmental or legalistic and recently a Tool of Satan and seeking to destroy the Church, why because I gently using Scripture tried to share with some woman their error in teaching that we continue to sin till we die and it’s ok because we are forgiven., this was on a website that many viewed. I asked for Scriptural confirmation and they could not give it the except the same Scripture which is always read out of context or read without Spiritual understanding according to 1 Corinthians 2: 2-13 as you said Believer their understanding is based on their own experience of sinning.

    I find those who reject S.P use the same Scriptuer, such as if we say we have no sin your calling God a liar which is True but it is refering to Salvation because if we don’t think we need it because we have never sinned that’s a big Lie, we see this when it is read in context 1 John 1:6-7 the same as Jesus is our Advocote if we sin but if we keep sinning what does it say when read in contex
    1 John 2:3-6. Paul in Romans 7 was showing his battle with the flesh nature and he felt wretchared not Born again but who rescued him? There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, but when read in contex it says … who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    As a man thinketh in his heart so he is – Proverbs 23:7 if we believe we sin till we die we will but as you said Believer we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin Romans 6:11 So what about evil thoughts is that sin, well we know the flesh pollutes the mind and spirit, rubbish in rubbish out that is why we are to put the flesh to death but does the Mind of Christ think or choose to do evil? so do we have the mind of Christ ? ….Jesus said if your thinking about Adultery it shows where your heart focus is and if it’s sinful, you will sin, if you sin in fleshy anger by not repenting of it, then it leads to bitterness and resentment which is sin.

    There is much more I could share Believer and I will on the next post but if you would like to contact me or any one else my Internet e-mailing address is annestocks@ymail.com as I would prefer not to share personal details here, but I hope to have a Blog some time in the future.

    Kind regards Anne

  60. 60. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    Believer, do you put your faith in God’s word, or in what the Bible has wr8tten?

    Everyone would like to think ifs the Bible. Few can make the claim. Let me ask you, what wa@ the last topic you challenged your own beliefs on? Have you ever? Or do you take in Scripture, from the mindset that you are right, and make Scripture. Fit your beliefs?

    Would love to discuss this topic with you. Having discussed this with the passive aggressive and witnessing a butchery of self serving back patting, I would hope you received a more rounded view than that contingent would present.

    Be well, you know how.to.contact me. I assure you of one thing, you haven’t heard the arguments I.use to back my position up. And I have heard every argument your view has to offer. Also, understand, I was raised.with a southern Baptist background. When I tested Scripture on soteriology, it presented a quite different view than what I was taught.

    I.can show you five or six verses that directly state Xians are to be mature in earth, before they die. You have nine that support you will sin before you die. What a firm grip Satan has the church in, to have most of its’ members repeating words of mman than asking seeking and knocking on their own to receive god’s word, not man’s view on God’s word.

    I’m extremely confident in my theology, but that doesn’t mean I rest on having of right yet. Also, I’m probably the only person you will ever meet that supports this position without claiming to be sinless now. Most use the thoughts as tool to falsely lift themselves up before men. They get very angry when you can show.them errant in Scripture. But since they have to.”act sinless” they can’t let themselves be angry, so they talk in a soft voice, use passive aggressive language, and pretend they aren’t.

    I wonder if they realized that anger isn’t a sin, how they deal with it could be. Paul was a very angry, callous man at times… as was the Christ.

    Please contact me. I don’t care iif you agree with me, but I think it is always good to reason together. That is one way God witnesses to us.

    Brad

  61. 61. Anne Stocks Says:

    Hi again Believer, I meant to commend you before and say I respect your stand in that you don’t depend on man’s fleshy understanding but that you Trust in God’s Truth, it seems Believer we have the same focus, I don’t go to a book, buy a tape, ask a Minister or even a friend, watch a video, although I’m not saying they don’t have some value but thankfully I don’t need someone else expounding their own ideas but if I want to know something like you I ask God and He leads me to His Truth and confirms it in His written word, by His Living Word.

    Thanks again Believer for sharing – Christian Love Anne.

  62. 62. Anne Stocks Says:

    There is indeed some confusion in regard to the teaching of Sinless Perfection and I understand this because some Cults also teach it but what they teach is counterfeit and leads to bondage. Then there is also fear because it is not fully understood and others claim it is teaching that we have to earn our Salvation… WE DON’T IT’S A FREE GIFT.

    With God leading me to a conviction of His Truth in regards to this wonderful gift He has given us in Christ Jesus which is what Sinless Perfection is really all about I have experienced much opposition and some deception from Cults.

    At first when using my Pen name Annie Hope I was not aware of the Cults false teaching and so I’m sorry if you were mislead like I was, they are very cleaver in their deception. I thought that what some were teaching about Sinless Perfection was the same message because I was not recognizing them as being members of a Cult but in time I found out this was true and now recognise their deception and test the spirit of those who promote the Counterfeit version of Sinless Perfection.

    Cults do not accept the Godhead or Trinity as we call Them today and this is because they don’t have The Holy Spirit but we still need to be careful if they claim they do believe in them because they have a different fleshy understanding of The Trinity then we do and so we can still be deceived if we don’t have God’s discernment.

    To sum up for now ….The Scriptures tell us we do not have to earn Salvation, it is indeed a free gift 100% and we do not deserve it, we have all fallen short of the glory of God but we show it is a reality in our lives when we are perfected in Love and Born again of God’s seed by our righteousness in words and deeds but this is not by our effort but by the empowering of the Holy Spirit and until we are because of God’s foreknowledge of our heart repentance we are under His grace and can be forgiven if we sin 1John 2-5 sadly if we continue to sin it shows we have not accepted Salvation but if we are a Child of God we will after coming to real heart repentance and then in accepting fully God’s gift of deliverance over sin in Christ Jesus we will be set free.

    Thanking you for your time Christian Love Anne.

  63. 63. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    Anyone who’s focus is on sinless perfection isn’t there. Paul describes on Phil 3 that. Those who are perfect would keep the mindset of those striving to get there. The word perfect oaul a confusing translation, as the creek word means finished, complete, quickened, etc…
    What people like to call sinless perfection is a consequence of Being a mature believer. Its a result, not an achievement. If you still consider ot as a goal, you still are focused on self and that is antithetical to a mature believer.

    Xian maturity is best described in two verses, 1 john 4:16, and Matt 5:48. One is a commandment from Christ, the other discusses the person who does not pay heed to the.commandment. the commandment is to love as God loves.

    If that love is a part oof yoir life, self isnt a focus, neighbor is.

  64. 64. Anne Stocks Says:

    Hi Believer, it seems like me you may have also lost contact with this posting but you could click on again so I will leave a few more messages for you. But I’m so sorry you must have thought me very rude not to have responded to your post and it was a very Loving message with much encouragement, anyway perhaps we will meet again.

    In regard to the confusion that is in the Church today as you said most is because of a dependence on their own agenda and understanding or someone else’s and not God’s wisdom as empowered by the Holy Spirit who isTeaching us all Truth 2 Corinthians 2 also because over many years with Cults and different Denominations, false teaching has deceived by planting lies.

    Even with what we take for granted our speech or understandings of words has changed that is why I appreciated Believer that you like me do not depend on man made Tools for your understanding with God’s Truth in His written word, because we know although a help they can also have error as does Translations of the Scriptures. But as we Trust in the Lord He not only leads us into all Truth but He shows us where there is error or deception, like with the Cults Translations and man made helps or tools.

    Its interesting to see when you read a few different understandings of the original Greek they are not always in agreement and as we know a word may have more then one meaning it depends in what context it is used in which one will be applicable and even then they can be used wrongly. So once again this is why we must Trust God not man or we may become confused or worse deceived.

    As an example words referring to emotions can be used for different reasons or be used in the wrong way, even some that I use to say as a Child mean something different today, like being Gay was always a good thing but not today it has been twisted, the same as the word sick, to me it’s always been an illness but some today use it meaning, something is good and so on..

    As another example Paul shows us what we need to aim for but some Translations use the words press on others say reaching forth or following after also straining toward they all mean the same thing …

    Philippians 3:12-14 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

    2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    1John 4:17-19 Herein is our Love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in Love. We Love Him, because He first Loved us.

    Interesting that the word perfect in these Scriptuers are confirmed in the oldest Translations we have today and yes does also mean compleat as another poster said and this word even today means… Being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish… in other words perfect as Paul said we must aim for it by walking in Love.

    I will be in touch again Believer – Christian Love Anne

  65. 65. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    Believer, read about narcissistic behavior. This is an ecmxcellent of the Sarx/sinful nature discusses. The narcissist first tries rom charm people to acknowledging them as an ideal, person, wife/hubby, worker, whatever. When passive aggression fails, the resort to chastening, punishment, even up to violence. Picture Glenn close/fatal attraction, 87ish. She was patterned after classicalnarcissism.

    And unfortunately, we are NT to.strive to be flawless, without blemish. That isn’t the. Heart of scrioture, and puts the focus on the pperson, jot God. We are to learn to love as the father, God does. The results of the journey will have through trials and tribs, and training present a person of changed heart and mmind. And scripture is adamant, those changes are made by God, not self. Self gets in the way.

    So anyone that teaches you its your job to be there distorts Scripture, and will defend that lie with all hey have.

    Oh, also, another identifier of the narcissist ket the desire to always have the last word so they can control their image to others.

  66. 66. Anne Stocks Says:

    Well I agree that God must always have the Last Word and He does even if we think we do.

    James 4:10-11 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

    Proverbs 31: 26

    Colossians 3:4-6 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

    Romans 6:17-19

    2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    2 Corinthians 13:11

    Romans 8 5- 17 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. or if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    Philippians 2:14-15

    James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and He will flee from you.Come near to God and He will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up.

    1 Peter 2:7-12

    1 John 5:2 -5 By this we know that we Love the children of God, when we Love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the Love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.

    2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the Faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing.

  67. 67. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    You and I both know who i was talking about. And I’m sure you will admit it was impossible for them to not respond. See, once you have.nailed a person’s personality, the become a stringed instrument you.can make tons of music with.

    It was irresistable to be silent and not, “show me” wasnt it? Thanx for proving my point.

  68. 68. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    Really bob? Wanna check that claim? It may not be YOUR image of Christ like, bitrevealing a BLATANT narcissist and protecting your other users from her is very.Christ like. I’m not overthrowing tables or killing fig trees here. The Disciples of Christ faced similar situations with early agnostics, and the circumcision group. Paul wished the circumcision group would cut their penii off to stop them feom the lies they.spread.

    Listen Bobby, you 3ither dumb, innocent, or never the abuse the narcissist reaps upon people. Just Google it, it shows yoi real fast. Read about those that.are friends with one, or with people who married one, see the.aanguish and turmoil the people suffered.

    Enabling that may be what you think is Christ like, hit if it is you aare pretty demented.

    Remove me from yyour board, as long as I receive notes feom that psychotic woman from here trying her passiv3 aggressive wwiles on your innocent users, I’m obligated by the. CHRIST, you invoked to make them aware.

  69. 69. Anne Stocks Says:

    Thank you Bob

  70. 70. Anne Stocks Says:

    Hurt people hurt people and themselves… if the pain we feel in our heart is sometimes is so overwhelming how much more must God’s be when He sees us crushed and broken, fearful, needing to be restored… He came that we would be set free from the carnage of sin…He came so we could be perfected in Love.

    The cost was great but His Love was greater.

    Luke 4

    2 Corinthians 4

    2 Corinthians 4: 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

    Christian Love Anne.

  71. 71. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    Diversion… tactical tool of the Narcissistic.

    Keep the eyes from.looking at them any.way.possible, except when they.can posture as MORE….knowledgeable, wise, experienced, professional, successful, Godly, owning secret knowledge…Doesn’t matter as long as they.can ensure they.loom special. When the.facade is broken, they stop trying to reason. With the one that clocked the
    . They.either.attack them, threaten them, OR they try.to.rally the.troops, using one’s own family members against them even. Read about it, don’t trust me. Educate yourselves.

  72. 72. Anne Stocks Says:

    Hi Bob, one thing that has become very true for me in my Christian walk and to me the word Christian means Christ in you/me a Name I’m proud to be know by and that is God’s Love is what it’s all about, but His Love is not the same as man’s fleshy worldly understanding of Love.The two Scriptures that show me the heart of God are 1 Corinthians:1-8 & Galatians 5:22-26 but many others speak to my heart.

    Believe me I have no doubts that I have weaknesses and shortcomings not meaning sins and so do others but what I feel is more important is that my focus is on others strengths not their weaknesses and also not on my own weaknesses Luke 6:41-43 I have just too many so they would overwhelm me but I know as I’m being perfected God will mould and shape me and convict me of what I need to seek His cleansing for. I am indeed a cracked vessel but thankfully He is the Super Glue and His glue sticks fast with Love.

    But sometimes correction is needed in regard to error in teaching and with sinfulness so until our flesh Nature has been put to death we need to be willing to be corrected and to be willing to correct others but it must not come from the fleshy Nature but with the leading of the Holy Spirit and in Love. If we Love others we will want to protect them from danger but we will not be seeking to hurt them by condeming them, sadly I have been guilty of this but I have repented and it is also important that we accept correction in Love and not resent it.

    So how do we know the difference…Love covers a multitude of sins but it does not condone them or does it promote them but it does forgive them when repented of.

    Without repentance which means turning away from sin and seeking to do good a choice we need to make by asking the Holy Spirit to empower us to walk in Love there is no deliverance, there can’t be, because there is no sorrow for the evil we have done or the hurt we have caused others and so we will continue to do evil which shows we don’t Love God or others and this will be evident in our words and actions.

    Continued next post….

  73. 73. Anne Stocks Says:

    Continued….

    Another very important Truth to know is what John 3:16 is showing us, yes we know that Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the world but to receive forgiveness we need to believe in Jesus Christ His Son as part of the Godhead or Trinity as They are called today. Because to believe in Jesus we must believe that He has the Power to forgive sins and the Scriptures tell us only God can do this so our conviction of our sinfulness will also bring through The Holy Spirit an assurance that Jesus Christ Romans 10:8-10 & 1 Corinthians 12:3 … is Lord which in the Greek means God. God has offered Salvation to everyone but if we deny The Living God Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour we are rejecting God’s free gift of Salvation in Him. John 3:18 which includes deliverance by the Holy Spirit the 3rd person of the Trinity and it is through Him that we are empowered to put our flesh nature to death but as you can see by the confirmation of Scripture we have to choose to walk in Righteousness for this to happen which means we choose to walk by the Spirit not the flesh and this is how we put our flesh to death, Romans 8:12-16 to walk by the Spirit means we choose to walk in Love through His empowering. We can’t pump up our flesh to obey as we are often told, we have been set free from this bondage by Jesus, if we are walking in the Spirit we won’t have to make ourselves obey we will want to because of our Love for God and others. For most of my time in Ministry I believed you had to work at it and of course there were Scriptures that seemed to support this….

    I will continue another time… Christian Love Anne.

  74. 74. Anne Stocks Says:

    Sorry Bob I need to be more careful when posting Scripture…I have corrected it below…

    Hi Bob, one thing that has become very true for me in my Christian walk and to me the word Christian means Christ in you/me a Name I’m proud to be known by and that is God’s Love is what it’s all about, but His Love is not the same as man’s fleshy worldly understanding of Love.The two Scriptures that show me the heart of God are…

    1Corinthians13:1-8 & Galatians 5:22-26 but many others speak to my heart.

    Thank you for your patience with me – Kind regards Anne.

  75. 75. brad.dickey@gmail.com Says:

    Irresistable, isn’t ot. Charm or.chasten. Talley.as many.asnyou.can. typical nod, or borderline personality.disorder. that is.the name of the.disorder. read about the literal.dangers from such.people, hopefully I’m.wrong. well, I.can’t be.wrong, I.can’t diagnose yoi, and wouldn’t, but I.can identified inherent behaviors exhibited before us all.

  76. 76. Anne Stocks Says:

    Dart Test…

    A young lady named Sally, relates an experience she had in her Missionary Outreach class, given by her teacher, Dr. Bob She says that Dr. Bob was known for his elaborate object lessons.

    One particular day, Sally walked into the College and knew they were in for a fun day.

    On the wall was a big target and on a nearby table were many darts. Dr. Smith told the students to draw a picture of someone that they disliked or someone who had made them angry, and he would allow them to throw darts at the person’s picture.

    Sally’s friend drew a picture of someone who had stolen her boyfriend. Another friend drew a picture of his older brother. Sally drew a picture of a former friend who had lied and deceived her, putting a great deal of detail into her drawing, even drawing pimples on the face. Sally was pleased with the overall effect she had achieved.

    The class lined up and began throwing darts. Some of the students threw their darts with such force that their targets were ripping apart. Sally looked forward to her turn, and was filled with disappointment when Dr.Bob, because of time limits, asked the students to return to their seats. As Sally sat thinking about how angry she was because she didn’t have a chance to throw any darts at her target. Dr. Smith began removing the target from the wall.

    Underneath the target was a picture of Jesus. A hush fell over the room as each student viewed the mangled picture of Jesus; holes and jagged marks covered His face and His eyes were pierced.

    Dr. Smith said only these words… “In as much as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me.”  Matthew 25:40.

    No other words were necessary; the tears filled eyes of the students focused only on the picture of Christ.
     

    Matthew 5:43-45  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy Neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in Heaven for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Love and hate can not co-exist,  they are not in Unity we  can’t have Love in our heart while ever we hate someone and without Love the Holy Spirit can’t fill us with the rest of His good fruit. Galations 5: 22-25
     
    Music – A New Commandment To Love One Another as He has Loved us.

    Brad.. I Love and pray for you in The Lord’s empowering I’m sorry I hurt you – God bless you greatly- Anne.

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