In the back of Finney’s Systematic Theology 1878 edition that is published by Bethany House Publishers, there is a glossary of terms. From what I can tell, the glossary of terms were not written by Finney but inserted by one of the publishers, as it is not in the online 1878 edition of Finney’s Systematic Theology.
This definition will give you a feel for the kind of disinformation people involve themselves in when they are trying to invalidate a doctrinal position they disagree with.
This definition is found on page 589.
Sinless perfection is not a term I have ever used to explain the “free from sin” teaching that I hold. While I do not think anyone believes the above definition of sinless perfection, I put it there to make a point.
Carnal people have always been willing to build straw men and rejoice as they tear them down. In doing so, the only ones they are tearing down is themselves and the simple people who do not have enough prudence to find out what a person teaches for themselves. “The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going” (Pro 14:15).
So perhaps I should lay out what I consider the Bible teaches concerning the doctrine of “free from sin”. The following lays out clearly how I would hold the Bible teaches, when it comes to being free from sin.
1) A person who desires to become a child of God must bring forth fruits to God that are consistent, worthy, keeping with, and befitting repentance (Mat 3:8). Fruits befitting repentance have no merit in becoming a child of God, but are scriptural requirements.2) A person must have godly sorrow (2Cor 7:10) for their sins and repent of their sins (Luk 13:3) to become a child of God. Sorrow and repentance have no merit in becoming a child of God, but are scriptural requirements.
3) Repentance is a complete change in attitude toward your past sinful life and a commitment to completely change and reform your life by the power of God.
4) Becoming a child of God is by grace through faith and is not based on the merit of any works, but is the gift of God (Eph 2:8).
5) When by grace with godly sorrow and repentance through faith you believe in your heart (Rom 10:9) on the merits of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and ask God for forgiveness of sins, and believe by faith God has forgiven you (1Joh 1:9; Act 4:12 1Pet 1:9), you are converted and have become a child of God.
6) Freedom from sin (Rom 6:18) is obtained at the moment a person becomes a child of God (1Joh 1:8).
7) The sin that a person is freed from is willful acts of sins of commission and omission (Jam 4:17).
8) In order for a child of God to maintain victory over sin, the flesh, and the world (1Joh 2:15, 16), they must abide in Christ (Joh 15:4-6), in prayer obtain grace to help in time of need (Heb 4:16), be diligence to add the fruits of the Spirit to their life (2Pet 1:4-10), humble themselves before God (1Pet 5:5), build up their faith through reading the Word of God (Rom 10:17), hunger and thirst after righteousness (Mat 5:6), work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phi 2:12), and be led by the Spirit of God (Rom 8:14).
9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).
Really, there is no difference between becoming free from sin and becoming a child of God.
December 8th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Hi Bob
This article by Finney on SP is very well put.
July 6th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Bob, Great blog site, I look forward to reading more. I don’t like Finney’s definition because he defined it as being accomplished without God’s grace and that is impossible. Victory over sin only is possible by God’s grace and not our own strength. With God all things are possible, we can indeed do all things, including obey if we follow Jesus. I believe a sinless perfection can be achieved in this life and I am aiming for that, seeking to be Holy as my Father in heaven is Holy, suffering in my flesh to cease from sin, and striving to enter the narrow gate. I hate how people twist Romans 7 into a false doctrine based on 1 or 2 passages. I believe 1 Cor 10:13 says there is not a single temptation we cannot overcome if we trust in God and the leadings of the Holy Spirit (assuming we are indeed Born Again). If the son sets us free, we shall be free indeed and that freedom wasnt from the penalty of sin, it was from the power of sin in our lives. May God bless you and lead you in your ministry.
July 8th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Hi Pete,
That definition was not written by Finney but was added to his book by some one that didn’t know what sinless perfection means. While most holiness people use the term Christian perfection versus sinless perfect, the definition is away off.
I would hold that he Bible teaches that free-from-sin (willful or known) comes with salvation.
Thanks!
Bob.
July 8th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
THanks Bob for the clarification. When you say free from sin with salvation does that mean when we are resurrected in new bodies upon the Lord’s return or when we are fully sanctified in this body in this life? This opens up all kinds of issues, but if we are saved now, we are free from sin now unless of course we walk away and become unsaved, which I believe the bible teaches we can choose to do as unbelievable as it seems.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Hey Bob and Pete, I agree with you both. Pete I believe you can walk in sinless perfection in this life. We can’t say we’ve never sinned but we can say that with the sinless Holy Spirit in us we can be made complete in Christ. In Christ David Pace
November 30th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Hi David Pace,
I think the term sinless perfection is not a good term to use. I like the Bible term “free from sin”. As you see in the above article “sinless perfection” means different things for different people. Sinless perfection is not a term that has every been used by “holiness scholars”. John Wesley preferred to use Christian perfection and here is why.
“(5.) The best of men still need Christ in his priestly office, to atone for their omissions, their short-comings, (as some not improperly speak,) their mistakes in judgment and practice, and their defects of various kinds. For these are all deviations from the perfect law, and consequently need an atonement. Yet that they are not properly sins, we apprehend may appear from the words of St. Paul, `He that loveth, hath fulfilled the law; for love is the fulfilling of the law.’ (Rom. 13:10.) Now, mistakes, and whatever infirmities necessarily flow from the corruptible state of the body, are noway contrary to love; nor therefore, in the Scripture sense, sin.
To explain myself a little farther on this head: (1.) Not only sin, properly so called, (that is, a voluntary transgression of a known law,) but sin, improperly so called, (that is, an involuntary transgression of a divine law, known or unknown,) needs the atoning blood. (2.) I believe there is no such perfection in this life as excludes these involuntary transgressions which I apprehend to be naturally consequent on the ignorance and mistakes inseparable from mortality. (3.) Therefore sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself. (4.) I believe, a person filled with the love of God is still liable to these involuntary transgressions. (5.) Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please: I do not, for the reasons above-mentioned.
Q. What advice would you give to those that do, and those that do not, call them so?
A. Let those that do not call them sins, never think that themselves or any other persons are in such a state as that they can stand before infinite justice without a Mediator. This must argue either the deepest ignorance, or the highest arrogance and presumption.
Let those who do call them so, beware how they confound these defects with sins, properly so called. But how will they avoid it? How will these be distinguished from those, if they are all promiscuously called sins? I am much afraid, if we should allow any sins to be consistent with perfection, few would confine the idea to those defects concerning which only the assertion could be true.”
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
November 30th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Hi Pete,
The salvation that I was talking about is here and now. Today is the day of salvation but only those that endure to the end will be eternally saved.
Thanks!
Bob.
November 30th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Hi Dennis Wells,
This article was not written by Finney. The definition of “Sinless Perfection” was taken from the back of Finney’s Systematic Theology but was added by the editor as far as I can tell. That definition was written by either a person how had little understanding of the holiness position on sin free living or by a person that has no problem misrepresenting others.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
March 15th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
I feel that Charles Finny had a good understanding of Sinless Perfection but not what it means to be Born of God or have His seed, if we have really come to heart repentance and our flesh has been put to death by the Spirit than how can we continue to sin. We have the mind of Christ and He does not choose to sin and because He lives His live out in us we are empowered to resist Temptation this is because we have come close to God so Satan flees.
1Jn 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the Children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not Love his brother.
May 11th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).
James 4:17. Do you do all good things you know to do all of the time? If not, then it is sin and you loose your salvation.
Here are some good things to do:
1. give all of your money to the poor
2. help clean up the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico
3. say something nice to every person you meet
4. tell your family you love them
5. feed an orphan everyday
6. feed a widow everyday
7. feed a homeless person everyday
8. pray constantly
9. read your Bible constantly
10. do community service everyday
Remember now, if you don’t do these good things that you know to do then you have willfully sinned and lost your “salvation”.
A salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all.
May 11th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Hi Shane,
>>>Do you do all good things you know to do all of the time? If not, then it is sin and you loose your salvation.
By the grace of God I have victory over every temptation. If you doubt where God offers that kind of grace please consider these scriptures.
Lk 10:19 over all the power of the enemy
Mk 9:23 all things are possible to him that believeth
Mk 11:24 what things soever ye desire
Rom 8:31 God be for us, who can be against us
Rom 8:37 more than conquerors
1Cor 10:13 make a way of escape
1Cor 15:57 giveth us the victory
2Cor 2:14 always causeth us to triumph
2Cor 9:8 all grace abound toward you
2Cor 12:9-10 my grace is sufficient
Eph 1:3 blessed us with all spiritual blessings
Eph 1:19 exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward
Eph 3:20 able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask
Eph 6:13 that ye may be able to stand
Phil 2:13 to will and to do
Col 1:29 which worketh in me mightily
1Ti 1:14 grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant
2Thess 3:3 keep you from evil
Heb 4:16 find grace to help in time of need
2Pet 1:3 given unto us all things
2Pet 1:10 ye shall never fall
1Joh 4:4 greater is he that is in you
1Joh 5:4-5 whosoever is born of God overcometh
Jude 1:24 able to keep you from falling
>>>1. give all of your money to the poor
2. help clean up the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico
3. say something nice to every person you meet
4. tell your family you love them
5. feed an orphan everyday
6. feed a widow everyday
7. feed a homeless person everyday
8. pray constantly
9. read your Bible constantly
10. do community service everyday
I would agree with you on 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, but I don’t think we are called to #2 or #10.
By the grace of God I live a missionial life and believe we are called to help the homeless, the orphan, and the widow.
However I don’t we are called to give all our money away to the poor. But having said that we need to be more than willing to help out the poor with clothes, lodging, and food.
>>>A salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all.
I appears to me in scriptures that where are warning that our salvation is conditional.
Here are a few of them.
– IF you forgive you will be forgive.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
– IF you continue in the Word then you are a disciple.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed”;
– IF you don’t abide in Christ you will be cast forth as a branch.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
– IF you don’t continue in his goodness you will be cut off.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
– IF you continue in the faith you will be presented holy in his sight.
Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
– IF you hold fast unto the end you are Christ’s house.
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
– IF you hold your confidence steadfast unto the end you are a partaker of Christ.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;
– IF after you are saved you sin willfully there remains no sacrifice for your sins.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
– IF you keep his commandments you know Christ.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
– IF what you have heard remains in you, ye will continue in the Son.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
May 11th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Jesus said one of the signs of the end in MT 24, was that MANY would fall away from the truth. The Lord is the Word and that is the truth. The signs are here. I see scores of passages that say we can fall away and I don’t need to know Greek to understand what the WORD says. Paul had not yet attained to salvation (Phil 3), he pressed on until the very end. We work it out with fear and trembling. Those that claim we cannot lose salvation, have NO FEAR OF GOD and therefore are without understanding. We cannot lose salvation it so long as we CHOOSE, with our own free will, to LOVE Him with all our heart. That is the simplicity and purity of a true devotion to Christ. Anything else is just RELIGION. Certainly a sin in and by itself does not lose our salvation, it is when we practice sin and walk as a double minded harlot that we are lost and blinded to the truth. God sends the blindness, he sends it as part of His judgment.
1 John 1:8-9, says we are forgiven when we confess our sin but that sin is one that is committed out of weakness or a weakness/stumble, we are not practicing it and perverting the grace of God into a license for sin (Jude 4). We are warned a hundred times counting the prophets to not be deceived about this point. Where the line in our hearts that separate practicing sin from stumbling in a sin is, I don’t know but God knows. That is why we are to fear God and not play around with sin. If perfection is not our aim, then Jesus, the real one, is not really our LORD. We are just playing church and being religious.
Many are worshipping the image of the beast, a false Jesus that has been exalted in the place of God by the traditions of men. The end comes with a flood (Daniel 9:26, Mt 24:39, Rev 12:15, etc) of deception and all that deception takes us away from godliness and a walk of purity. Mercy is abundant but not unlimited. Mercy has been mixed up with grace and the gospel has been perverted just as was predicted would be the case.
Praise God for His Spirit that instantly convicts us of sin. Our Father brings discipline upon us out of LOVE in hopes we will respond to it. If we do not respond, and practice sin, following a false gospel of perverted grace that twists repentance and accomodates sin, we are illegitimate and NOT SONS says my Bible. If we really love God, we will obey His commandments and if we think we can retain our salvation and yet not love God, we are sorely deceived and have been swept away by the flood of lies which is also the God sent delusion. It is already here.
May 11th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Perhaps some of my “good things” were a little over the top. But if you know to do something good and you don’t do it then it is sin.
Fortunately the true Christian has had the righteousness of Jesus imputed to him. The imputed righteousness of Jesus is something Charles Finney could not grasp. I am not sure how he could not see that in Scripture(Romans3:22-26,Romans 4:5). Perhaps Charles Finney was greater than the Apostle Paul? It seems like Paul struggled with sin(Romans7) but did Paul lose his salvation?
So anyways, it seems as if you are teaching that you have to keep from sinning or in order to be saved. Based on this statement:
9)If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).
Then in order to keep that “salvation” you will have to keep the entire Law. Feasts, animal sacrifices, commandments, and etc… If you fail to keep any part of it at any time, then you are in sin.
May 12th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Hi Pete,
I think most of your points I would agree with. I would see a big difference between some one that falls into sin by weakness and some one that professes salvation but loves intermittent sinning and love to think they have heaven and their sin at the same time.
Adam and Eve fell by one sin and I see no difference now. Sin bring death (separation from God) to the sinning soul. Adam and Eve didn’t need to practice sinning to fall they fell on the seemingly “small sin” of eating some fruit that they knew they shouldn’t eat.
>>>Those that claim we cannot lose salvation, have NO FEAR OF GOD and therefore are without understanding.
I think you are being to judgmental here. With what judgment you judge God will judge you in the same way. I couldn’t say George Whitefield, Johnathan Edwards, Robert McCheney, Charles Finney, Paul Washer, and John Piper have no fear of God and are without understanding. I would be more inclined to think that some one that is willing to judge them as you appear to have, to have no fear of God and to be without understanding.
The ministry of each of these dear brothers in Christ is doing more in a day that you and me together will do in a life time.
Any one that would condemn these good man as deceived I would question where that person is really saved.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
May 12th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Bob, My message didn’t come across the way I intended. I judge no one’s heart but was stating what I see as a foundational truth about GOD that has all been cut out of the Babylon Church. I see the fear of God as the foundation upon which all true knowledge of God is based. Without that fear, Isaiah and later Jesus said men would be hearing but not hear, seeing and not see. Paul said they would be ever learning but never able to come to knowledge of the truth.
I love Paul Washer, he teaches the fear of God, he teaches a walk of holiness. So my apologies to anyone that was offended, but I do see where God Himself sends blindness and delusion upon all that love sin. I see that in all the Prophets and the gospels and the Epistles. It is a common persistent message that was never changed by the coming of our Messiah. Believe you me, I am not in any way trying to accomodate sin but I also don’t want anyone to be discourage and equate losing their salvation with making a mistake. If they love God, they will get back up and keep walking immediately. If they don’t really, they will rationalize their sin as acceptable. We cannot serve two masters and any sin we hold onto we tell God we love it more than Him. If we do that, Jesus is not our LORD and we are deceived. I think we are in pretty close agreement on that but in any case, this is a good discussion and edifying blog and I commend you on that.
May 12th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Hi Pete,
I think that love is the foundation on what all true knowledge of God is based. Fear of hell is a good reason to get save but it is going to take the love of God shed around in your heart by the Holy Spirit to keep you all the way through.
I don’t think anyone was offended I just think we need to be careful what we say about others that disagree with us on doctrine. I would how ever feel like a liberal Eternal Security where a person can have a “moment of faith” and then go and live in sin all their life and still go to heaven is false and those that teach that doctrine will more than likely be lost as they will have the blood of believers on their hands.
Do you have a website or blog Pete? Are you on Facebook? Where do you live? I would love to talk to you on the phone some time Lord willing!
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
May 13th, 2010 at 8:47 am
When I speak of eternal security, I mean a true Christian will persevere (1Pet1:5). They will not fall away from the faith and if they do they were never saved to begin with (1John2:19). They will press on to maturity. Not a simple making a profession of Jesus once and then living with no change in your life.
So either: A. The Bible contradicts itself on the security of the believer or B. the Scriptures on the subject don’t mean what we think they mean.
If you want to use John15:1-6 to show that a believer can lose their salvation. Then according to verse 6 they cannot get it back once it is lost. These verses never say that the branch can be grafted back in. It is ultimately gathered and burned.
Considering Jesus says He will never cast out one of His sheep (John6:37), all that believe in Him have eternal life (John3:16, John5:24, John10:28) and true believers have been predestined to salvation, called by God to salvation, justified by God, and ultimately glorified (Rom8:30, Acts13:48, Eph1:4), the true believer is a new creation (John3:7,2Cor5:17) has God living inside them (Rom8:9) has been sealed by the Spirit (2Cor1:22, Eph1:13) and is no longer God’s enemy (Rom5:1) and has Jesus interceding on our behalf (Heb7:25) I cannot help but believe that the TRUE BELIEVER is safe and secure in their salvation and the “warning” Scriptures are talking about something or someone else, of which there is plenty on the web to study. I couldn’t possibly post answers to all of them in this post.
Anyways, that’s my two or three cents on the matter.
May 13th, 2010 at 9:43 am
We all could write a book on this topic. I see eternal security the way it is taught being a doctrine of demons. Jesus was quoted saying MANY would FALL AWAY in the end. He also said three overlooked words with huge significance in speaking of the end in Luke 17. REMEMBER LOTS WIFE. She was saved, she was ready to be escorted out of Sodom to safety, but she turned her heart back into the world and lost her life as a result. Paul had not yet attained to it, he said he pressed on and that the athelete had to finish the race to receive the prize. We are told not to SHRINK BACK (Heb 10:30-32) from the Word and be destroyed. Following God and Loving Him is a choice, otherwise it is not love. We get to make that choice every day. The Lord will never cast us off, we cannot be snatched away against our will, but we can certainly decide/choose to turn our hearts away from God. That is why God brings the enemy to us, to test our faith constantly. Jeremiah 6:27. Jesus was tested constantly not just in the desert. Luke 4:18. If we could not fall away, there would be no need for God to test us. The good news to me is that IF IF IF, we stay focused on Him, then we are secure, but the moment we turn our mind and our hearts elsewhere we are fair game to drawn away into sin and rebellion. Indeed the story told throughout the Prophets which Jesus did not come to abolish.
June 16th, 2010 at 10:56 am
Bob,
You are in very serious error when you make a statement like this:
9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).
You quote from 1 John but apparently have missed 1 John 1:8, 10
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
You also have missed, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, The Righteous One.” (1 John 2:1)
You are trying to tell me you have not committed one single willful sin since becoming born again?
Do you realize what you’re even saying? Not only are you deceiving yourself as it says in 1 John 1:8, but you make the cross of Christ of none effect! If I believe you, than all it takes is me messing up one time to undo what Christ has done on the cross. I happen to believe His sacrifice is effectual and complete; Christ is my righteousness, I have none of my own. He paid the whole price and bore the complete penalty for my sin- past, present and future.
You said: “Adam and Eve fell by one sin and I see no difference now. Sin brings death (separation from God) to the sinning soul. Adam and Eve didn’t need to practice sinning to fall they fell on the seemingly “small sin” of eating some fruit that they knew they shouldn’t eat.”
Bob, the difference is Jesus!
“Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.” (Romans 5:16)
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (John 10:28)
June 16th, 2010 at 11:26 am
Hi Mike Helms
>>>You quote from 1 John but apparently have missed 1 John 1:8, 10
No, I am aware of 1Joh 1:8, 10. I just don’t view it in the same light as you do.
You can read my view on these two scriptures in my article Who Are Liars, Deceived, and in Darkness?
>>>You also have missed, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, The Righteous One.” (1 John 2:1)
No, I am aware of 1Joh 2:1 also. John was lead of the Spirit to write that them don’t sin but also at the same time brings out the truth if you disobey God and sin against him there is a way for forgiveness.
>>>You are trying to tell me you have not committed one single willful sin since becoming born again?
I am been living for God for around 30 years and no I can’t say that I have not sinned one willful sin. I do how ever believe the standard of the Bible is that we don’t sin. By the grace of God sin is not a way of life for me. I have had a number of times over the paste 30 years that I have fell into sin and even into practicing sin. But that certianly is my not testimony that my Christian experience is one of sinning and repenting. I find the grace of God is able to keep me from sinning.
>>>Do you realize what you’re even saying?
Yes I am very well aware of what I am saying. I have standing against sin and you seem to be standing for it.
>>>but you make the cross of Christ of none effect!
I would see those that stand for sin in the Christian’s live to be holding for the same experiece that the blood of bulls and goats brought. One of sinning and repenting. That makes the cross of Christ of none effect. I uphold the power in blood of Jesus. I saves not only form the penalty of sin but from the love and power of sin. And if you endure to the end you will be delivered from the very presents of sin.
>>>If I believe you, than all it takes is me messing up one time to undo what Christ has done on the cross.
Man sinning doesn’t undo any think Christ has done.
>>>I happen to believe His sacrifice is effectual and complete; Christ is my righteousness, I have none of my own.
Amen. That is a good start. Now go and sin no more! Trust in the power and promises of God.
>>>He paid the whole price and bore the complete penalty for my sin- past, present and future.
He has paid for all sins, even the sins of those who are now in hell. But only repented and forsaken sins will be remitted.
>>>Bob, the difference is Jesus!
Are you saying that now Jesus has given us a license to sin. Adam and Eve were judged for sinning and cast out of the garden but now with Jesus we have a license to sin in that sin doesn’t effect us? If this is the case you are listening to the lie of the devil “Ye shall not surely die” Gen 3:4. Sinning brings spiritual death (Jam 1:15).
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
June 16th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Hi Bob,
Thanks for your reply.
Since you admit, “I have had a number of times over the past 30 years that I have fell into sin and even into practicing sin.”
Can we at least agree that your statement is wrong then when you say: “If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).”
By your own words, you would be saying that YOU no longer have eternal life and have become “a child of the devil”. You clearly do not believe that is the case in regard to yourself, so why make such a statement?
I went to the post you referred to concerning 1 John 1:8. I noticed that there are others who are also trying to warn you that what you are believing is wrong doctrine.
You said in that post that 1 John 1:8, “is one of the most quoted scriptures to support a sinning Christian life.” In your reply to me you suggested that by using that scripture I was supporting a “sinful Christian life” as well. Bob, that is complete foolishness! I do not support a sinning Christian lifestyle. Jesus came to do away with sin, and we are called to repent of sin and walk in holiness, so please don’t even go down that road. You have already admitted that you’ve sinned in the last 30 years, and you still believe you’re a child of God… so I ask again, will you please consider taking down your statement since it directly contradicts what you’ve just told me about your own life?
You have twisted almost everything I said in my previous post to make it appear that I am advocating a loose lifestyle. Just because I believe that the blood of Jesus is enough to make me acceptable to God, and that Christ’s sacrifice for me is my ONLY hope for heaven, and that He ALONE is my righteousness… does NOT mean I am playing free and loose with grace. It means I believe the gospel; it does NOT mean I am advocating that Christians should live carelessly or that we have a license to sin.
I am not the only one to write you about these things. Perhaps you should consider what we’re saying?
Mike
June 16th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Hi Mike Helms,
>>>Can we at least agree that your statement is wrong then when you say: “If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life abiding in them (1Joh 3:15) and have become a child of the devil (1Joh 3:10).”
No not at all. Yours or mine experience don’t have any refection on the teaches of the Bible.
>>>You clearly do not believe that is the case in regard to yourself, so why make such a statement?
While a person is unrepentant and commiting willful sin they are a child of the devil. They may repent and change.
>>>I noticed that there are others who are also trying to warn you that what you are believing is wrong doctrine.
Christianity for the most part doesn’t believe that you can live above sin and they are living in a life style of intermitten sinning. So of course they don’t want to hear that they can’t live this way and still be a child of God.
>>>In your reply to me you suggested that by using that scripture I was supporting a “sinful Christian life” as well.
My comment was that “you seem to be standing for it [stand for sin].” There is a different between says it appears or seems like you are supporting some thign verses accusing a person of supporting some thing.
>>>You have twisted almost everything I said in my previous post to make it appear that I am advocating a loose lifestyle.
Please point out one thing I have twisted and I will quickly change it and apoligize. You appear to hold that a Christian will continue to sin until they are saved from sinning by death. YOu seem to hold that this will have no effect on their eternal destiny. If this is the case, note I says seems, they yes you are supporting a sinning Christian experience.
I do not support a sinning Christian lifestyle.
I hope this is the case. But any one that changes grace into a license to sin and that hold all sins are already forgive included the ones they have yet to commit is in my view supporting a sining lifestyle. It seems this is your position.
>>>Just because I believe that the blood of Jesus is enough to make me acceptable to God, and that Christ’s sacrifice for me is my ONLY hope for heaven, and that He ALONE is my righteousness… does NOT mean I am playing free and loose with grace.
I would agree. It is not these statements that I noted that seem to imply that you are turning grace into a license to sin. It was the following statements.
<<<He paid the whole price and bore the complete penalty for my sin- past, present and future.
<<<You are in very serious error when you make a statement like this: 9) If at any point a Christian commits a willful sin, they no longer have eternal life
>>>I am not the only one to write you about these things. Perhaps you should consider what we’re saying?
Most professing Christians I know believe you can sin and that it doesn’t effect you standing concerning eternal life with God. This is the same lie that Satan told Eve — “Ye shall not surely die” Gen 3:4. I have chosen to not accept that lie.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
June 16th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Bob,
It sounds like you’re trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ… It’s all about you, not what He’s done for you, that I keep hearing in your words.
You also seem to believe that you can have eternal life, lose it, get it back again, lose it again, get it back… and so on. You cannot find that in the bible.
Thanks for hearing what I’ve had to say. I think we’d just be going round and round if we continued, so I think I will bow out at this point.
Mike
June 16th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Hi Mike,
>>>It sounds like you’re trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ
No, I am trusting 100% in the power of God.
>>>It’s all about you, not what He’s done for you
Not at all. It is all about the power of God and what God has and can do for us.
>>>You also seem to believe that you can have eternal life, lose it, get it back again, lose it again, get it back… and so on.
I understand you don’t see that in the Bible. You appear to me you feel like you can sin as a believer and it doesn’t effect your eternal state. I think this is a wrong view. This is the snake told Eve, you shall not die, and that was a lie. She was separated from God.
I would be happy to sit down with you and look at what the Bible has to say about this subject any time you are in the area.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
June 29th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Hi Bob I have been watching the feed back and input and because we continue to learn until we are perfected or what we have learned through Jesus Christ our only Teacher is confirmed and continues to be reinforced, I would like to share again in regards to Sinless Perfection in answer to some of the comments offered.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come.
If we have Jesus Christ within and do His works or even greater we will also be like Him and have His holiness, His sovereignty, His Love, His wisdom, His power, His grace, and His compassion, which means also we will no longer sin when we are Born again and have God’s seed as you can see by the Scripture below. If we do the works Jesus does and walk in Him we will indeed reflect Him and He does not sin, that is what it means by our Love is made complete, as you know perfect Love has no fear this is because fear is to do with sin and punishment, but in Christ Jesus we no longer sin so we do not fear punishment and our past sins have been forgiven and so we are cleansed from all unrighteousness in other words our flesh has been put to death by the Spirit as we chose to walk in Love by His empowering.
1 John 4:17 In this way, Love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like Him.
1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the Children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not Love his brother.
So what happens when a person falls into sin before they are perfected, the Scriptures tell us that if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defence Jesus Christ, the Righteous One 1 John 2.
We need to remember there is a difference from falling into sin and falling away or rejecting the Lord and His forgiveness and Salvation. So regardless of the tag some may put on themselves if they do this they were never saved in the first place and their works or actions will show this. They cannot be brought back to heart repentance if there was none in the first place Hebrews 6:6 and to pretend to do so makes Christ out to be a liar because by their hardness of heart which is shown in sinful actions and no repentance they are saying His death is unable to free them from the bondage of sin. The real danger in this is if they know the Truth but continue to sin till death what more can be done, they are rejecting Christ who is the only way to have Salvation and freedom and this is the unforgivable sin.
Sadly this is so regardless of the fact that they may have been in fellowship in the Body of Christ and have received Spiritual gifts, we remember that even Judas was given the power to heal and cast out demons just like the other Disciples, but as Jesus tells us he never came to heart repentance even in his death and because God knows all things he was chosen to fulfil Scripture but he was an enemy of the cross and Satan controlled him because of his lack of heart repentance. This was not the same as the rest of the Disciples who showed their real heart repentance through the waters of Baptism and so were also Baptised with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and by choosing to walk in Love and being perfected in Christ Jesus they were righteous right up to their earthly death .
Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
God knows that until we are perfected we may sin and He makes provision for this in Christ Jesus when we repent, but it is not His will that we do sin, He wants us to choose to walk in Love by the empowering of the Holy Spirit so our flesh will be put to death and we can be perfected.
Thank you once again for your time and for the opportunity Bob to share again my heart whisperings. – Christian Love Annie Hope
June 29th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Hi Annie,
>>>I feel that Charles Finny had a good understanding of Sinless Perfection
I am sure what I posted in my article as a definition of Sinless Perfection, that I took from Finney’s Systematic Theology, was not written by Finney. Finney was more principled than to misrepresent the Wesleyan doctrine of Christian Perfect to the extreme that the editors who added that definition did. But yes I think Finney clearly understood what the Wesleyans taught concerning Christian Perfect while he clearly didn’t agree with it. He was not only was a well read Theologian but Asa Maham, a well known Wesleyan, was President of Oberlin and Finney would have had daily contact with him for a number of years.
Wikipedia: Asa Mahan
Wikipedia: Christian Perfection
Scripture Doctrine of Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan
>>>but not what it means to be Born of God or have His seed
Well he knew enough to have been used of God to convert over 200,000 people to Christ. I smile went people who have been used little by God for the salvation of souls think they know more about leading people to Christ those those that have been used mightily by God in the leading of people to Christ.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
June 29th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Hi Shane,
>>>The imputed righteousness of Jesus is something Charles Finney could not grasp.
What do you feel like Finney didn’t grasp about imputed righteousness?
>>>It seems like Paul struggled with sin(Romans7) but did Paul lose his salvation?
Romans 7 is Paul’s experience pre-conversion.
>>>So anyways, it seems as if you are teaching that you have to keep from sinning or in order to be saved. Based on this statement:
Yes, to stay saved you have to forsake sin and not go back to it.
Bob.
June 29th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Hi Shane,
>>>When I speak of eternal security…
I don’t really want to turn this thread into a ES discussion.
Bob.
June 29th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Hi Bob,
I saw this on the thread today and feel you’re being shortsighted by your statement:
“Well he knew enough to have been used of God to convert over 200,000 people to Christ. I smile went people who have been used little by God for the salvation of souls think they know more about leading people to Christ those those that have been used mightily by God.”
God also used George Whitefield mightly in the Great Awakening and he believed nothing of the sort as you do concerning being “sinless”. So your argument really doesn’t hold water.
Mike
June 29th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Hi Mike,
>>>I saw this on the thread today and feel you’re being shortsighted by your statement
No, it is a common argument that I bring up for those with a my-way-or-the-highway doctrinal position. God used George Whitefield a 5-point Calvinist, Charles Finney a 4-point Calvinist that rejected the doctrines of Original Sin and Original Guilt, and John Wesley a Wesleyan-Arminian. Who are we to judge those as false teachers that God has seen fit to let them remain believing diverse teachings but at the same time mightly used them for the conversion of souls.
>>>God also used George Whitefield mightly in the Great Awakening and he believed nothing of the sort as you do concerning being “sinless”.
Not my point was about “leading people to Christ” not about the definition of sin or concerning the doctrines of unconditional election vs conditional election or conditional security vs eternal security or perseverance of the saints.
Finney was not a Wesleyan-Arminian, he was a 4-point Calvinist who rejected Original Sin and Original Guilt. I would disagree with most of what Finney taught when it comes to dogma but I could never say he didn’t understand “imputed righteousness of Jesus” as he lead thousands of souls into that experience and I still smile when I hear people stating that Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards, Finney, or others used mightly for the saving of souls, didn’t understand the different aspects of salvation.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
June 30th, 2010 at 7:36 am
Perhaps Bob since we are both still alive our Pentecost will also come and many will be won to the Lord through the empowering of the Holy Spirit in us.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
God does not count heads …..He counts hearts.
Many Blessings Annie Hope
June 30th, 2010 at 10:36 am
Hi Annie,
>>>Perhaps Bob since we are both still alive our Pentecost will also come and many will be won to the Lord through the empowering of the Holy Spirit in us.
Amen, lets us pray for revival in North America. Lets us pray for personal revival, for revival in congregations, and for Christianity as a whole. While I am not looking or hoping to be used in a mighty way I am looking to be used in the way the Lord wants me to be.
>>>God does not count heads …..He counts hearts.
Amen on that one. We wants both!
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
June 30th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Yes Bob I agree and I also want what ever God wants as you do and He is not just about numbers, and yet He is about numbers. Jesus’ admonition that the Pharisees were white washed tombs shows us what God wants… they did all the outward things but there was no heart repentance and they numbered many, sadly today in the Churches some walk the same road … How excited the Lord is as Scriptures tell us when someone really repents from the heart, the Angels rejoice in Heaven and those who have truly repented show a changed life and this is not just in words but in actions too an both will be from their Godly heart focus.
God numbers one soul that repents in sorrow and humility of great value as we see with the prostitute who wet Jesus feet with her tears in sorrow because of what she had done wrong or Zacchaeus who showed his repentance in actions…although he did not earn his repentance by his actions nor did he have to make himself do the right thing he chose to and the Spirit empowered him to do God’s will a who would have keept him strong till the end.
God values each one who truly repents more than 100,000 + that do so outwardly but have no change of heart . But like God and you Bob I want Millions + to come to true heart repentance and I want God to use me to do this, why because this is what He wants for us all, but we limit Him using us because we believe we may not be called to do this or we don’t have confidence in our ability to do so, but as we are often told it’s not our ability but our availability, God will indeed equip us and give us the resources to do His will if we believe and obey His guidelines but we may do this in differant ways. Jesus said go and make disciples… He did not say but only one each or a few if you are able.
Women are to remain faithful to their God given role the same as Men so in regard to the Church and Marriage, Men are to be in Leadership and to be in Authority so a Women’s role does not include Preaching where you are needed to be in Authority. Woman both in their Marriage and in the Church are to be Helpmates, Physically , Mentally, Emotionally and Spiritually as the early Christian woman were.
In the flesh Women are not to teach with their own understanding because they can be deceived, but like Deborah the Judge and Pricilla etc they can speak God’s Truth when anointed and lead by the Spirit but must remain under His Authority and within their role as Deborah shows us. Deborah did not see herself as a Leader but as a Mother and she rebuked Barak for wanting her to lead the Israelites with him.
But in Marriage and the Church both Men and Women are needed to fulfil God’s purposes because even though Adam was in fellowship with God … God still said it is not good for man to be alone and so He created a Helpmate for him, and so it is today unless someone has the gift of being Celebrant and if so God will fulfil their needs, but they will still need the Love, Encouragement, Support, Council, uplifting and Godly advise of their Brothers and Sisters in the Lord like us all…
Christian Love and Peace to you in abundance Bob – Kind Regards Annie Hope
July 15th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
“The Doctrine of Sinless Perfection”
Do the words “sinless perfection” occur anywhere in Gods word as stated? No, it does not and so therefore does this disprove the doctrine as being the scriptural truth of the matter” Again no, it does not disprove the truth of the matter. We need first of all to examine the word “perfect” and try to see exactly what it means and the condition of what something is that is perfect. Let us look at what Jesus said as stated in Matthew 5:48 that says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” From this scripture we know that as far as God is concerned he is perfect. And we know also that God certainly does not have any sin. Since we are told to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect, does this mean that we are to be sinless as he is, or can we be perfect as he is and still possess sin in our life? How can we be perfect as God is if we still possess sin in our life? God is perfect without sin, but who in their right mind would believe that we would be perfect as the Father is even though we have sin in our life? Does not this belief reveal that there would be different degrees of perfection if one can be perfect with sin in their life? How can man be perfect with sin in his life when we know that there is certainly no sin in God who is perfect? We are told to be perfect even as God is perfect, so how can we be perfect if we have sin in our life? If we have sin in our life and we believe we are perfect, then this reveals that we are not perfect as God is. God has no sin and he is perfect, so how can we be perfect as he is if we have sin in our life?
People just don’t understand the truth about being perfect and how that it can be achieved in one’s life. Let me say first of all that it is totally one hundred percent impossible for a man to be perfect and live a sinless life simply because he without Christ can do absolutely nothing, as Jesus said in John 15:5 saying, “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” Note carefully that Jesus said that without him we can do nothing. Now does not Matthew 5:48 tell us to be perfect as the Father in heaven is? Who in their right mind can say they can be perfect and sinless as God is without possessing the power of Christ in their life? Now I asked this question to say and ask this question. What can we do through Christ that strengthens us as Paul said in Philippians 4:13 that says, “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” Now since Jesus told us to be perfect even as the Father is, (Matt 5:48) then can we be perfect through Christ that strengthens us, or is this one thing that we cannot do through Christ? Does not “ALL THINGS” that we can do through Christ include or exclude being perfect as the Father is? What did Paul have to say about being perfect? Listen to what he says in Philippians 3:12-14 that says, “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
Do you have any idea as to what state or spiritual condition a person is in if they are truly in Christ Jesus? If not then listen to Paul again in what he said in Colossians 1:28 that says, “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man “PERFECT IN CHRIST JESUS.” This “IN CHRIST” position is where perfection is, and do you know why? Listen to what John says about this as stated in I John 3:5 that says, “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” There is absolutely no sin in Christ and if any man be in Christ will there be any sin in his life? Not according to Paul that said in II Corinthians 5:17 saying, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Is the new creature still the old sinning creature? Now let me show you the simple truth concerning what sinless perfection is and how it definitely can and must be achieved in this present life. Listen to Paul tells us these words in Galatians 2:20 that says, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Do you hear Paul saying that the life that was now being manifested in and through his mortal flesh was the very sinless, and eternal life of Jesus Christ and not him that was living the life? If this is not sufficient to convince you, then listen to Paul again in what he tells us in Colossians 3:3-4 that says, “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” Do you hear Paul saying “when Christ, who is our life?” Calvinist teaches that they have the imputed righteousness of Christ, which would simply mean that they are only counted as being righteous and that God cannot see their sin. This is nothing but a devilish doctrine that Paul warns us about in I Timothy 4:1 and millions of people are believing it. The truth of the matter is that it will be the very “life of Christ” (not just counted as being righteous and still living in sin) manifested in and thorough our mortal body. Listen how Paul verifies this truth in what he said in II Coritnhians 4:10-11 that says, “Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.” So in closing let Christ live his life through you and quit struggling in vain trying to live for him.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:58 am
Thank you Chalmer Holiday for clarifying the Truth of Sinless Perfection and I agree it does appear in Scripture many times over,
It surprises me that man will accept readily the Truth of the Trinity or the Rapture when the words are not in the Scriptures but not believe in Sinless perfection, yes we know the Trinity is referring to the Godhead and that the Rapture is clearly shown in Luke and Revelation and no doubt other Scriptures. We know also Aids is mentioned by Paul not of course the actual word but it is the same as the others, such as D.N.A and Dinosaurs they are modern words not used in the original Greek or Hebrew but their meanings are very clearly shown in the Scriptures.
Like you Chalmer Holiday God has shown me many Scrictures that confirm Sinless Perfection but I was excited to find more as I read your summery of it, thank you so much for taking the time to share and help others to understand God’s Truth and as you say Jesus did not just come to forgive our sins but came to set us free from the bondage of them and in so doing we are refined, purified and made spotless not only are we covered but we are washed in the blood of the lamb and perfected. Daniel 11:35 – Ephesians 5:24-28 – 12:10 – 2 Peter 3:14
July 21st, 2010 at 9:21 am
Dear Chalmer Hoilday I must apoligise for the mix up with the Scripture I was using the N.I.V but also forgot to put the name of one of the books see below..
2Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Many Blesings Annie Hope