As noted salvation has requirements. The Calvinist god takes pleasure in sending people (and children) to hell. The Arminian God doesn’t.

Those whom God elects but how does he elect them. Unconditionally or based on His foreknowledge of how they will respond?

I read in the Bible of those who cast off their first faith having damnation.

Okay. I agree. But WHO? Was he not talking to those that had O.T salvation…and was He not instructing them as to what they had to DO to prepare for the coming kingdom? To make the transition from the old to the new.

Also John commanded those who where coming to him for the baptism of repentance to “bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance” (Mat 3:8).

Okay. Same people.

So if you want to call repentance and bringing forth fruits pre-salvation “works” then you will either have to look at Eph 2:8, 9 as salvation is “not by the merits of works” or repentance and pre-salvation fruits are not works in the sense that Eph 2:9 is speak.

Salvation is an ever ongoing process. A continual washing as one progresses in light.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

“to save them that believe”. We know ‘believing’ is a step one has to make. But, if they stop there, they will never make it. After ‘believing’ the ’saving’ goes on.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Same thing. CONTINUE in them….and in DOING SO..thou shalt both ’save’ [he was already saved, was he not, but in order to stay saved, there was a CONTINUING that had to take place] and the same with those that heard him.

I would like to present a scenario.
Lets say that you had 2 sons.
And let’s say that you were thinking about giving each one of them a million dollars.
Now lets say that you had the ability to run their lives on out a ways, in your minds eye, and were able to actually see what each one would do with their million dollars.
In your foreknowledge, you were able to see that the one son appreciated it and used it very wisely.
The other son, you saw, gambled it away, and totally wasted it.
Now let’s say your foreknowledge was absolutely accurate, and you knew it. No if’s and’s or buts.

Now. KNOWING what you know, are you STILL going to give BOTH sons that million dollars.
If you say yes, God would call you a fool.
God wouldn’t. He is a good steward!

Now let’s picture your sons.
The one son that isn’t going to get the million dollars is going to feel like he never had a chance!!
And, to those around him, that didn’t know what YOU know, it would appear the same way!
They would misjudge you very badly.
Say you were unfair…unjust. Partial.

just some things to think about…

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So.
There is no such thing as ’salvation without works’ then.

I don’t think there is a catch 22. The Bible commands us to repent (Luk 13:3). Also John commanded those who where coming to him for the baptism of repentance to “bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance” (Mat 3:8).

So if you want to call repentance and bringing forth fruits pre-salvation “works” then you will either have to look at Eph 2:8, 9 as salvation is “not by the merits of works” or repentance and pre-salvation fruits are not works in the sense that Eph 2:9 is speak.

So to me there is no puzzle at all.

The third position where God does it all and you do nothing is a Calvinist delusion in my view.

I reject Calvins Nero-god teaching of unconditional election where God is accused of taking pleasure in sending souls to hell for not coming to him while he imputes Adam’s sin to their charge, brings them into this world with a nature that is bent to sinning, and when he sends out his ministers to call the lost to repentance he refuses to give them the grace they need to come to him.

What an awful charge to make against a just God. God save the world from this blasphemous doctrine.

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To answer your questions we must ask what the requirements of being saved are. I would hold that Bible teaches we must have godly sorrow, we must repent, we must commit to forsake all sin, we must believe in our heart, and we must give our will over to God.

Unquote.

If i would ask, what must one “DO” to be ’saved’, then right away we have a ‘catch 22′ situation, in regards to if there are ‘works’ involved or not.

For the very word “DO” requires an ACT on our part.
If one doesn’t have to “DO” anything, then the answer would be ‘nothing’.

If i have to “DO” SOMETHING….anything, then there is a ‘work’ involved.

There IS a way to put this puzzle together so ALL the pieces FIT!! :)

Ok.
So a ‘person not saved by works’ would mean that they are NOT SAVED by ANY ACTIONS of their own.
Yet, you would turn right around, and say a person must ‘repent/pray/confess and so forth, in order to be ’saved’.
Are ‘repenting/praying/confessing and such not ‘works’?
Are they not an ‘effort/labor’ of the mind?
Are their not different STAGES in the salvation process, just as their are different stages in the process of physical life?
Fetus/embryo
Babe.
Child.
Teen.
Young adult.
Middle aged adult.
Wise grey head.

Peter, in talking about the coming kingdom, asked Jesus, ‘How oft shall i forgive MY BROTHER?”
Jesus should of said, “oh, in the coming kingdom, you won’t have to worry about that, no one will offend/sin/miss the mark in any way shape or form!”
What was his reply?
70 times 7.

Was the letter of James written to the saved or the lost?
Were the ‘carnal’ babes in Christ Paul was dealing with there in 1 Cor lost or saved?
Paul in speaking concerning the brethren there at Rome when NONE STOOD BY HIM prayed that this ’sin not be layed to their charge. He was NOT referring to the lost!

“There IS a sin unto death…and there is a sin NOT unto death. I do not say that you should pray for it!”.

Jesus, in speakng to the scribes and pharisees said, ‘If you were blind, then you would have no sin. But now you say you see, therefore your sin remaineth”.

The greatest sin that any man or woman can commit is becoming a ‘whited wall’. There IS very little hope for such.

There are those that believe that a child of God ’sins more or less everyday’.
There are those that believe a child of God is ’sinlessly perfect’.
BOTH are err in the 1st degree.
Walking in the light….is a ‘progressive’ thing.
A babe in Christ has very little understanding.
As their understanding grows…what their requirement is, is to KEEP walking in the light…and as they continue to do that, they will be CLEANSED/WASHED as they progress in light.
What is a child of God ‘washed’ from?
DIRT? Contamination?

Do you take a shower, or wash, physically, daily?
Why?
Get some ‘dirt on you’?
The reason that is the way it is, is because it paints the TRUE spiritual picture of walking/working/living in this world.
The reason God put a ‘laver’ at the entrance of the literal ‘tabernacle’ is because they needed to ‘wash’ EVERYTIME they entered their in.
Well, there IS also a ‘laver’ at the entrance of the SPIRITUAL tabernacle…and the reason it is THERE is to ‘wash’ EVERYTIME one wants to come before God.
Wash from what?
The ‘dirt’ of life!

So why would God kill children if they disobeyed Him?
Or is ‘disobedience’ not ’sin’?
What does God chastise His children for?
Doing RIGHT…or doing WRONG?
Might it just be because they MISS THE MARK? [sin]
We are SURROUNDED by the principals of how THINGS work.
THe principals of how a PHYSICAL family FUNCTIONS is a portrayal/picture/type of how the SPIRITUAL family operates.
You would not kill your wife or children for disobeying, yet you would say that God does?
If ‘disobeying’ is ’sin’ then they ‘die’ when they ‘disobey’.
Either disobeying isn’t ’sin’ or it is a ’sin’ that doesn’t KILL somebody.
Not till it gets to the point of REBELLION!!

Romans 7…..
Some say it is the picture of a life of a child of God.
Some say it is a picture of Paul while lost.

Both are err.

The TRUTH?

It is one of the STAGES of growth….that a true child of God GOES THRU….in the SPIRITUAL development from fetus to wise old grey head.

The DEVIL is a MASTER in providing folks with all KINDS of counterfit ’spiritual experiences’.
EVERYONE…supposedly ‘based upon the scriptures’.
The DEVIL is the MOST EXPERT SCRIPTURE QUOTER THAT EVER WAS!!

We are living in the day and age that is FILLED with deception as never before in the history of our world.
So much so, that ‘if it were possible’ even the ‘elect’ would be deceived.

for now…
brethren there at Jerusalem

I would feel the Bible teaches a person is not saved by the merits of any work we do. The English word “works” in Eph 2:9 is from the Greek work ἔργον (ergon) and is defined in Thayer’s Lexicon as follows.

To answer your questions we must ask what the requirements of being saved are. I would hold that Bible teaches we must have godly sorrow, we must repent, we must commit to forsake all sin, we must believe in our heart, and we must give our will over to God.

If we define ἔργον (ergon) in Eph 2:9 as an act, deed, thing done we have as follows. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of an act, deed, or thing done, lest any man should boast.”

So I wouldn’t hold that the Bible teaches that there is no conditions, no requirements, nothing for us to do to be saved but at the same time I hold that the Bible teaches that salvation is a gift of God and is not gotten by the merit of any act, deed, or think done.

I am married but don’t have any children but I wouldn’t kill either my wife or children (if I had any) if they disobeyed me.