Thanks for the link to Piper’s article and Spurgeon’s sermon. I would hold those that continue to commit willful and known sins and after they are saved and profess to be saved are liars (1Joh 2:3-4).

However sometimes there is a difference in definitions. If Piper and Spurgeon mean that no Christian is free from faults, lacks, and mistakes then I agree. But if they hold that no Christian can be free from willful and known sins what do 1Cor 10:13, 2Thess 3:3, 2Pet 1:10, and Jude 1:20 mean?

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.

I don’t think 1Joh 1:8 and 2Joh 2:4 are “going against each other”. That is my point. John is not going to say to the Christian if you “say you have no sin” you deceive yourself and then in six verses later tell the same person if you “keepeth not his commandment” you are a liar.

You hold these both apply to Christians. If you say you don’t sin you are deceived and if you don’t keep his commandments you are a liar. How can this be?

I apply the former to those that don’t have fellowship and the latter to Christians.

I would hold there are conditions to receive salvation and conditions to retain salvation. I don’t believe works have any merit but we are told to bring forth fruits meet for repentance and that if we don’t repent we will perish. So I don’t think we are saved by works nor do I think we are keep by works. We are saved by grace through faith and we are keep by the power of God through faith. It is God the works in our both to will and to do his good pleasure.

As far as John using the first person pronoun it is not uncommon to use first person pronoun and to be referring to others. Paul did it in Rom 7.

No I don’t think repenting for sin is nailing Jesus to the cross over and over or denying the finished work of Christ. The atonement is made for all. If you fall into sin there is a way back to God.

I don’t think we have to do anything to earn salvation but the Bible is clear there is conditions to receive salvation and their are conditions to keep it. That doesn’t mean salvation is not a gift as it is not uncommon for there to be requirements to receive a gift.

I don’t believe that salvation is based on works. That is just a false charge that many Calvinists through at Arminians. Arminians continue to deny they believe in a salvation by works and Calvinists continue to accuse them of it.

I would agree that most non-saved people are honest to admit they are sinners so that is pretty normal. However it has been my experience that most professing Christians I meet profess also to be sinners.

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.

The two verses are not going against each other at all.

If we say we know him and not keep his commands we are not saved in the first place but if say we are sinless even after the truth is not in us. The keyword is WE john was referring to the body of Christ. If John was not then it would be odd to use a word that would decribe One self or its readers who are christians.

If you Believe you can lose your salvation due to sin Then is not that same thing to say works depending if we keep it or Not? If one needs to accpet Christ again and again after a sin is that not like nailing Jesus to the cross over and over and denying Jesus own words it is finish?

Salvation is gift given from God right? if we have to do anything to earn it then it would not be gift and If we have to do anything base on maintaining it then would it still be a gift?

Isaiah says all our works are like rags of dirt and if our salvation is base on works in any way we would all be in trouble.

We have works because when someone is saved they are given a second nature The nature of Christ and over time The new believers changes more and more like Christ natural by the work of The Holy spirit.

Also if this verse is refering to people who are not saved, “if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

Should it not read They not we?

One last thing I have yet to meet one non-saved person that claims to be perfect but yet the only people I run into that says their life is sin free all the time are people that call their selves Christians.

[Editor: I combine four posts into one.]

Those that hold the position of conditional security don’t believe they “earn it [salvation] by not sinning.” I have yet to meet someone that holds to the teaching for conditional security that thought they earned salvation by not sinning. One of the marks of a true believer is they will do their best not to misrepresent the views and actions of others. I encourage you to follow the scriptures in this area.

I think however you need to learn how to deal with people that hold a view that is different than yours that is accepted in Christianity without accusing them of lies, prideful, deceived, and rebuking them.

If you do per chance have the truth you will just drive people away for that truth and make it harder for them accept it by acting the way you have in your above comment to me.

Also I think it would be a blessing to your spiritual walk to read 1 Corinthians chapter 13. Note in the first 3 verses it clearly brings out if you don’t have love for those who are in error you have nothing are are nothing.

While you may deep down have love for me it doesn’t show in your posted comments and I want to encourage you to look to Jesus to help you in this area.

Thank you for you comments and letting me know how you felt when you read my article. I also at one time as a strong 5-point Calvinist and felt very much the way you are coming across. So to some degree I have an idea where you are coming from.

I would encourage you to read the 1Cor 10:13, 2The 3:3, 2Pe 1:10, and Jud 1:24 and meditation on them. They are beautiful promises that God has given to us as Christians.

Christian love and prayers,

Bob.

You are the decieved one. You are the one claiming to be free from sin. You got saved and now you prance around teaching lies about losing your salvation. 1Jn 1:9 clearly teaches that if we sin he will forgive us. The whole book of 1 Jn. is a rebuke to your fairy tale world of no sin. You are a sinner. You sinned before you kew Jesus and you sin now. You lust, lie and are angry without cause, you curse others in your heart and wish ill on them. If there wasn’t eternal security you would have been lost along time ago. I don’t even know you and I know you sin because we all do. Stop splitting hairs about sin, intentional and unitientional sin is sin. And you commit it daily.

Stop teaching lies and repent. You won’t be in heaven because you kept yourself from “willful” sin. You will be in heaven because you believe in Jesus. Period. Nothing else. If we can lose our salvation then we can earn it by not sinning. Christ loses no one that the Father gives Him. I rebuke you and your heresy. It makes me sick. You are a prideful heretic who has deceived himself into thinking he does not sin.

Here are some extracts from that article:
Regarding 1 John 1:7
‘Walking in the light does not mean perfection, for then verse 7 would make no sense at all—”if we walk in the light, we are cleansed from sin!” If walking in the light meant perfection, there would be no need for cleansing. Besides, verse 8 warns against claiming to be sinless while you walk in the light…..’

‘What is walking in the light? And what is cleansing by the blood of Jesus? Now the third question that we must answer is: What is the connection between the two? John connects them with an “if . . . then” construction. “If we walk in the light . . . then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.” What does this mean?’

‘John does not spell out at this point how walking in the light and being cleansed from sin are related in reality. He is content for now to say that there is no cleansing of sin for the person who does not walk in the light. This does not answer the question, Which comes first? or, Which causes the other? What it does establish is that there is a way of life in which the cleansing effect of Christ’s blood operates, and there is a way of life in which the cleansing effect of Christ’s blood does not operate.’

‘If we are not walking in the light, we have no warrant for believing that our sins are covered. There is no assurance of salvation while you are living in disobedience. “God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life” (Galatians 6:7–8). “Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46).’

‘How is such teaching good news? Some people think that the only way to make the gospel really good news is to deny that changes are necessary in our lives. They say that takes away the possibility of assurance of salvation. They say the way we live after putting our faith in Christ has nothing to do with our salvation.

I answer that a powerless gospel is not good news. A gospel that only wins lip service is not different than all the other philosophies of the world. Such a gospel produces a Christianity that is a game of words. It encourages lukewarm church-goers that they are safe from God’s wrath because of some inherited mental assent to the love of God….’

‘Clarification: Don’t Claim to Be Without Sin

Now we have seen the foundation in verse 5—that God is light and in him is no darkness. And we have seen the application in verses 6–7—that we must therefore walk in the light of God in order to go on being cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Now we must look at the clarification in verses 8–10.

John has just said in verse 7 that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin if we walk in the light. That could be misused to teach that Christians don’t sin any more. John knows that some of what he says could play right into the hands of the perfectionistic false teachers. See especially 3:9.

As usual, the truth is a razor’s edge between two errors—the error that says your conduct after conversion has nothing to do with your salvation; and the error that says your conduct after conversion must be perfect.

John shoots down the first error in verses 6 and 7, and then shoots down the second error in verses 8–10.

Light Reveals Remaining Darkness

Verse 8: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

The claim to be without sin is self deception. And the reason we are so deceived is that the truth has found no place in us. When a person is converted, the truth takes up residence in the heart. Or we could say the light of God comes into the heart. And what John says here is not that it immediately drives out all falsehood and sin. That is a battle that lasts a lifetime. What he says is that when the truth enters in, its light reveals sin! The mark of the saint is not sinlessness but sin-consciousness! The evidence of indwelling truth is the exposure of error. The dawning of God’s light in the heart is the revelation of remaining darkness.

In this life we never get beyond the awareness of remaining sin. Therefore one of the great signs of maturity in Christ is a deep and abiding brokenness for sin.

There is much talk today about esteeming ourselves as new creatures in Christ. And so we are. But our newness consists in this: that the true light is shining in our hearts revealing the dreadfulness of our remaining sin and the abundance of God’s grace. Our great joy is that our sin is forgiven in Christ. And our great grief is that so much of this very sin remains and defiles.

The mark of the new creature in Christ is not a rosy self-concept. It is brokenness for remaining sin mingled with a joyful confidence in the superabounding grace of God in Christ….’

‘Confession and Forgiveness

Verse 9 we have already discussed in connection with verse 7. But let’s review its meaning. We can see it best when we put verses 6–7 and verses 8–9 in parallel columns to show their similarity.

Verses 6–7 Verses 8–9
If we say that If we say that
we have fellowship with him and we do not have sin
we walk in darkness
we lie we deceive ourselves
and we do not do the truth. and the truth is not in us.

If we walk in the light as he is in If we confess our sins
the light he is faithful and just to
we have fellowship with one forgive us our sins
another
and the blood of Jesus his and to cleanse us from all Son cleanses us from all righteousness sin

One of the many insights we get from these parallels is that denying our sin is part of what it means to walk in darkness, and confessing our sin is part of what it means to walk in the light. Which implies further that denying our sinfulness cuts us off from fellowship with God (just the opposite of what we are prone to feel); and confessing our sin opens the channel of forgiveness and cleansing.

Some people say that a Christian should never pray for forgiveness because his sins are all forgiven in Christ. It is finished in the cross and no more forgiveness is possible. There is truth in this. But to me it smacks of artificiality. At least we should say, “Father, I have sinned and am not worthy to be called your child. Please apply the blood of Christ to this my sin and count it among those which you forgave when he died for me on the cross.”

But if that is too complex, I am sure the Father would gladly receive the words, “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.”

Calling God a Liar:
Finally, verse 10 repeats verse 8 with a stronger warning: “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” The claim to sinlessness is not only self-deception, but blasphemy. It amounts to calling God a liar.

This means that God’s assessment of us is not positive. He calls us evil. If we deny our evil, we call him a liar. John uses strong words so we will be strong people.

Let these simple, straightforward, weighty truths sink into your mind and you will have a great ballast to keep your boat from capsizing in the winds of contemporary fads and fashions and trends.’

The rest of the article is on this link:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ScriptureIndex/46/476_Let_Us_Walk_in_the_Light_of_God/

I also highly recommend Charles Spurgeons sermon on I John 1:8 entitled Honest Dealing with God found on:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1241.htm